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I admire your loyalty to your home state and I definitely appreciate your passion to your cause. I read a bit of the other thread and chuckled reading all points.
It's not a matter of loyalty to my home state but rather a matter of being fair to my home state by defending NJ's reputation from some unfair criticism. I don't expect everyone to agree that NJ is the best place for him or her. I fully recognize and appreciate that different people will have different needs or preferences and I'm fully supportive of their choices to leave or stay in NJ if that's what they want.
What I don't appreciate, however, is having people externalize their own personal troubles and misfortunes and projecting them onto the state of NJ, using NJ as the lightning rod of all their troubles and portraying NJ as being somehow "worse" than any place else for anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaBear2Cubs
However-
The reality is that NJ is becoming an area that is pushing out the average income earner....
You say that people should "put up and put out". Well, I agree but I can also see that many people are choosing to migrate to other areas that offer "easier" lives than what you find here. In its place, even more wealth is migrating here and while that may sustain the local economy it does make for a difficult dilemma for the average hardworking middle class person.
NJ is not pushing anyone out. Some average income earners may feel pushed out, but many average income earners continue to stay in NJ and enjoy living in NJ. In the end, it is all about choice. Those who feel "pushed", in my opinion, are most likely pointing a finger of blame at the state. I may be wrong, but I have yet to see a situation where someone is truly "pushed" out of the state, with one sole exception, that being certain senior citizens. Other than senior citizens, I have yet to hear or see a reliable case of someone literally being "pushed" out of NJ.
You quote me as saying that people should "put up and put out", but I never said any such thing. Others here have accused me of saying "love it or leave it", but I have not said that either. What I have said is that people should take responsibility for their happiness and if that includes moving out of NJ, that's their prerogative. Maybe people see that as "love it or leave it", but it's really just very basic advice and can be applied to much more than just living in NJ or moving out.
The other thing I DO say which may be misconstrued by many on this board is that those who truly don't like living in NJ WOULD leave it. My point is that people say things all the time but what speaks louder than their words are their actions. I can't really believe someone who has lived in NJ for many years and has no plan of getting out of NJ when he or she tells me that living in NJ is "not worth the money". Call me crazy, but I believe that when people truly believe something is worth the money they pay for it and when they truly believe it's not they do whatever they can to get out of paying it and finding a more suitable replacement.
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Originally Posted by MommaBear2Cubs
I have lived in 6 cities in the past 15 years (jobs) and here is my observation based strictly from my own anecdotal data points..... You cannot beat NYC for its vibrancy or opportunities to "hit it big". However, NYC is a lot less geographically or economically accessible than other cities are to its suburban centers.
This is not my experience unless I were to insist on driving into the city. In fact, with mass transit, getting into and around NYC is much, much easier than most other cities, including the ones you mention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaBear2Cubs
When I lived in Charlotte, Minneapolis, Cleveland, Seattle, Atlanta and Dallas, I had much more of an opportunity to get to see sporting events, concerts and theater and way better restaurants than I do, living here in NJ. It simply is a much bigger hassle to get into NYC than it was those other places and things cost more.
I'm very curious about that. My experience is that in NJ we have much more opportunity for all those things, and the food here (not even counting NYC) is far better than the food in the suburbs of the cities you mention. And NYC easily beats out the cities you mention when it comes to food and dining, and Philly would beat most of them, too.
I don't find there to be a hassle here compared to those places. Some things do tend to cost more here, but there are things that are better here and if you are savvy nothing needs to cost too much.
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Originally Posted by MommaBear2Cubs
Those other cities have more opportunities to outdoor fun too. Given they are newer cities, you find more amenities such as new walking trails, parks and the weather is *some* of those places allowed for more time spent outdoors.
Again, I don't understand this remark. Hard for me to believe this when I have walking paths, bike paths, parks, fields, hiking trails all right in my town, not to mention much more of the same within a few miles radius of my town, and not to mention further large state parks with mountains and trails one could get lost in in a 20-30 minute radius from my town. What more could one want?
As for weather, I don't see how any one place "allows" for time spent outdoors; in fact, a lot of places that have warmer climates than NJ are so oppressively hot and humid that outdoor recreation in the months of may thru September (or longer, e.g. Charlotte) don't allow for recreation, as opposed to cold weather which, with the proper dress allows for year-round recreation outdoors.
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Originally Posted by MommaBear2Cubs
Having said that, I agree that NJ has some unique things to offer.... Certainly there is no greater place to earn a living. NJ has a great "spirited" culture....and the theater, museums etc that NYC offer are the best in this country. It's just too bad that the average joe cannot afford most of it!
Well, I'm an average joe and I can afford it, and I know many average joes who can afford it and do afford it. And enjoy it.
I believe it comes down to priorities and perception of value and benefits, and for those who don't see the value of living in NJ compared to other places, well, those other places are probably where they should be living.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaBear2Cubs
So while I respect your zeal for the area you live in, please understand that truly there is another side to the coin. There is merit to the convesation of "is this worth it". I have relatives who were raised in this area and who have moved away for economic reasons and are thriving. Certainly those experiences cannot just be suppressed just because you like it here.
Again, you're mischaracterizing me by saying that the experiences of people who have left NJ ought to "be suppressed just because [i] like it here," since I never said that people ought to like NJ just because I like it here.
The conversation of "is this worth it", I made very clear, is answerable as "yes" by virtue of the fact that people choose to pay to live here and keep living here with no intention of moving, and that proves at the very least that NJ is worth living in for those people. I never once said that everyone should want to live here.
What I have said, however, is that pretty much all those who truly like NJ can live here if they truly want to. Iit involves trade-offs and sacrificing of some things they might have elsewhere, but if that's a problem, maybe they really like elsewhere (wherever it may be) MORE. That's for them to decide, but my experience shows that people tend not to choose things they find are too expensive for the benefit.
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Originally Posted by MommaBear2Cubs
Nor is it easy to say "move or shut up" for someone going through the process of analyzing what is/or is not working in their lives. Surely you know there is a lot more to relocating than just hiring the movers, right? ;-)
Surely, I do know there is a lot more to relocating than hiring the movers, the snark is unappreciated. On the other hand, it's not an impossible proposition as many pass it off to be. Some people blame their inaction on being "trapped", but it is not NJ that traps them, it is their own decisions. A family member or having family nearby isn't NJ's fault, it is a circumstance which an adult has a decision about, and many adults do in fact move away from family (and friends). I'm still baffled as to the "trapped" excuse, with perhaps one exception, that being those, like you, who bought in recent years. In such a case you very well may be trapped a little longer, but this isn't the majority of the people that I see complaining. Furthermore, being trapped that way would happen anywhere, not just NJ; even worse in other parts of the country.
Anyway, I haven't told anyone to "move or shut up". What I have said is that people who continually complain yet also continue to live here, for years on end, are hard to believe because their behavior belies any truth they claim about other places being "better".
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaBear2Cubs
I am sure this will invite a typical BCJ response to which I offer now, I will not engage in..... I think all points have been made and remade. I simply wanted to chime in to the conversations and now, having said my piece, I retreat back into the woodowork of lurkers where I usually reside.
Cheers,
Bear
Your points that have been made and remade are fine with me and I'm glad you said your peace. I just wish that your portrayal of me as the "put out get out" and "move out or shut up" character was reconsidered (along with those quotes which I never said) since none of it is accurate.
I'll say it clearly - people don't have to "love it or leave it" or "put out shut out" or whatever else. What I'm saying is that people who live in NJ, if they hated it, WOULD move out, and the fact that they don't lends credibility to the idea that deep down they must really like it here and must not feel as "pushed out" as some may claim.
Well, there you have your "typical BCJ response"; kind of disappointing that you start your post with an appearance of civility only to end it with such words.
Last edited by BergenCountyJohnny; 01-21-2010 at 05:00 PM..
People on this forum CONSTANTLY question this very topic and I don't see it being discussed with quite the passion anywhere else...except maybe California, which I believe is in worse shape. If you peruse the other forums, you may find some impassioned cause ala "Californians are invading" or "Is I-90 traffic a nightmare?" but rarely do you see people questioning affordability with the zeal you see here.
The two biggest cities in the country are also the most expensive. Throw San Francisco in there as well. They all have the same thing in common - they've almost run out of room to build more within a two hour commute of the downtown business core(s). The only place to go is up but people don't want more density.
And one problem in CA that NYC doesn't have is water. They can't build more housing than what they have water resources for. It would take a lot of mismanagement and explosive growth in the Delaware and Hudson Valleys for us to run out of water.
As an aside - I had the same interesting conversation twice last year. The first time was with an Australian in Melbourne who was talking about the cost of housing there. Melbourne is about the size of Boston for the uninitiated. 3 bedroom ranch houses built in the 70s and with a 30 minute commute to downtown go for around AUS $1 million . . . their salaries are pretty comparable to ours. So $1million is a lot of money. He rents with little real hope of buying a place (unless he decides to move far out into the 'burbs) I was astounded but then he said, "you can't think of Melbourne as some average, run of the mill city, to an Australian it's like San Francisco. There are a lot of good paying jobs here, the weather is great, it's a beautiful location - so people will pay a lot of money to live here."
Then, a few months later, I was in Toronto (my trip just happened to coincide with the Phillies/Jays series .) A conversation with some Canadian colleagues happened to turn to real estate. Again, the price of housing is eye-popping. Again, someone said, "but this is like the NYC of Canada. This is where you come if you're climbing the career ladder. This is where the stock market is, where the arts and culture are. You can't compare it to a Philadelphia or even a Chicago."
If you live in California - Sacramento is inexpensive. Even by NJ standards it's affordable. But who wants to live there?
Don't like the prices in Northern Virginia? Roanoke is a bargain.
I have prospered both in the Northeast AND in the Southeast. If I'm being honest, I became a man in the Southeast and it made this guy into who he is today.
I learned to be "cultured" in the Northeast - I consider myself a sophisticated country boy. I like simple things, but I also appreciate arts etc.
Interesting that becoming a man was not inclusive becoming "cultured"; the way I look at my life, part of my becoming a man was in becoming cultured, and without it I might not consider myself to have "become a man". I love my Rutgers Football, but it will always be only a game; I think if I were a Southerner and "became a man" there as an alum of Clemson or UGA I might still be something of an adolescent regarding things like college football, as a lot of southern men seem to be. I'm glad I appreciate the arts and live in a place where the arts are more on par with sports. I consider myself an outdoorsy city guy. I like the finer things in life, whether they are expensive or free, man-made or all natural, urban or rural.
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Originally Posted by JViello
In the end for me, it comes down to this:
"My kids will never remember how much I made, but they will never forget who I was."
I don't want that memory to be the guy who was in the office at 6:30am, got home at 7:30 eating dinner at 8:00pm by myself and passing out on the sofa at 9:30, stressed out beyond belief just getting by.
When I have time off, I see my family transform and that BOTHERS ME. It lets me know something is WRONG.
I have come to the place that I would rather be in a smaller home somewhere affordable with my wife at home without all the "city life" of NYC, working 8 hours a day with my family in tact. I'll vaca to NYC whenever I feel the urge.
But maybe I'm just stupid - fine.
We are in a very similar place my friend. Very much so.
I think you should definitely explore your options and do what's best for you and your family, whatever that may be. If you are feeling this stressed and unhappy with your family's situation then the worst thing you can do is keep spinning your wheels without making a change.
But the change may not be a move, it may be a change in lifestyle and/or outlook on life. I don't know, but that's something to consider as you think through things.
As for the line: "My kids will never remember how much I made, but they will never forget who I was."
I agree, but I don't think dad being home for dinner every night would necessarily be such a big deal.
What I remember of my dad in terms of his availability and how and where he chose to raise us is that he looked at the big picture and considered all variables beyond dollars and cents when making such decisions. When the economy went into recession in the 70's, just as my siblings and I were into our school years, he got laid off. He took a job in Queens and commuted every day, 2 hours each way, driving. Much of our childhoods he was not home for 5:30 or 6:00 dinner, but 7-7:30. However, he spent time with us on weekends and he did what he could to remain active in our lives. What I remember most is he would indeed get stressed but he mostly had a positive outlook. When he'd pray with us, he always thanked God for his job, even with that commute.
By the time I was almost out of high school, he finally was able to get a job that was in NJ only 12 miles from home. Sometimes having to commute far is a product of the times. Had we lived in another city there's no guarantee a recession won't affect jobs there, and he may have had a similar commuting situation elsewhere as well. At one point, he considered moving us to Florida. We drove down for 2 weeks, Disney and all, but with a trip to Miami. We saw where his new office would be, and we looked at homes. We knew we'd have more money. But we had no family there. My dad didn't like the slower pace and what he felt was an odd, non-family-oriented vibe of the area (it was already very much a retirement area). He chose to forgo the cheaper, bigger house and more disposable income in favor of the things we have in NJ. High on his priorities (with heavy influence from mom) was that they wanted us to be raised with educated, cultured people and venues around us.
So, yes, he wasn't at a lot of family dinners. Not a big deal. He made a stronger point by doing what was best for us. A father need not be present at family dinners all the time to be a respected, valued father. It might help, but it's not a must.
So, consider the big picture, consider how you want to raise your kids, what environment, how much of it can be improved without moving vs. by moving. As long as you consider everything carefully, make the decision and take action. Best of luck to you.
Just a general state/fed tax note - I'm almost done with my taxes for '09. Because I do a lot of consulting (normally a few weeks per job) I get a lot of 1099s. It's crazy to watch the software ratchet my federal tax burden up as they come in the mail. The tax burden falls very unfairly on the middle-class and, unfortunately, a lot of middle-class people like to blame the shiftless poor (that's not where most of your tax money goes). A lot of the ridiculously wealthy people I've had the misfortune of working for love to brag to me about how they get around paying taxes. Not surprisingly, the companies that they own do the same things - just different loopholes.
Just think of big transportation projects (which is my field) - $7.6 billion for the new train tunnel under the Hudson. My educated guess is that at least $1 billion of that is companies just skimming. Getting awarded the contracts, getting paid, then sub-contracting the work to smaller firms who will do the work for less. $1 billion is about $125 for every man, woman and child in NJ. And this happens all over the country thousands of times per year. When you get into military contracting it's even worse.
Mod cut: orphaned
Some people are obsessed with the cars they drive, how many sq. ft. their house has, what town they live in, if their school district is in the top 20 in the state. You only have to flip through these threads to see that it overwhelms some people.
My cousins say I live "in the hood." They're from Lincroft. To them, Hazlet is sketchy. My one cousin has a mortgage that is almost 3x what mine is. Their cars and the cost of their commutes run them over $1000/month. We don't even own cars. I think between trains, Zipcar and rentals we might spend $2000 per year. We still manage to take great vacations. In fact, because our work schedules are more flexible (because we ditched the high pressure careers) we have a lot more time off for that sort of thing.
If I still lived in Collingswood we'd have the added cost of one car (and nothing more fancy than a grocery getter). The other numbers wouldn't change. Even if i still lived in Monmouth Co. our lifestyle would cost us a lot less than theirs because we'd be living in some bungalow in West Belmar. Why do you need a giant, center hall colonial for three people?
It's just about priorities. A lot of suburban NJ is very "keep up with the Jones'". Personally, I just want to keep up with my family not with what I think my friends think I should have and certainly not with what my boss needs.
Just sayin' - you don't have to move to Texas to make it happen.
A little OT here, though it does relate to the topic. Re the bolded--not saying by any means that there's no corruption or waste in contracting, but how the heck would that happen? How does a contractor on a public transportation project get paid BEFORE he does the work--and then gets to subcontract out the job to a cheaper firm? He'll get paid as a percentage of work completed. The subcontracts have to be submitted with the bid breakdown and even if they are changed later, they still have to go through a subcontractor approval process. And there are always those audits...just found that statement curious. This (public transportation contracting) is my field, although the ARC tunnel isn't our project.
The fact remains that I find it very hard to believe anyone making over $150K in NJ is struggling (there are a few exceptions). I'd bet those people are driving expensive cars, eating out a lot, blah blah blah. I still maintain those who cry poverty with that income level could use a session with Suzy Orman!
Most people on 150k are either house poor, or looking at very modest housing options.
Most people on 150k are either house poor, or looking at very modest housing options.
I know plenty of people, myself included, who make less than 150K and have nice homes in nice towns. I guess "modest housing options" is in the eye of the beholder, since some people consider more than just the home and property by considering the neighborhood.
For example, if I were a New Yorker, I'd prefer a 2 bedroom 1 BA apartment on Park Ave. to a 3 bedroom 1.5 BA home in Hollis, Queens. Likewise, there are people who will consider a 3 bedroom, 1.5 bath home in Western NJ "modest" compared to a 2 BR 1 BA apartment in Edgewater, or Weehawken on Boulevard East, with a view of Manhattan. The pricing of these homes reflects this, also.
I see no reason someone who makes 150K can't live comfortably in NJ. I have a friend in Washington Twp who makes less than that and supports his wife and 2 kids in a nice 4 BR 2BA home, drives nice cars, has a lot of toys like flat screen TV's, hot tub, etc. I find it hard to empathize with anyone making that kind of money and still struggling in NJ - it doesn't make sense to me.
HOWEVER...if buying a house with a $150K + income suddenly makes you struggle, then I submit the house was too expensive and out of reach to begin with (this goes for ANY income level). If the house was bought within normal guidelines (2.5xs income
the reality is that if you're making 150k, you will need to either go with a very modest housing option (e.g. a cottage in a flood zone or on a busy street), or spend a little more than 375K to buy into a neighborhood where you'll fit in.
To do this responsibly, you need to do a combination of coming in with a larger (larger than 20%) down-payment. Also, the low rates do increase your buying power.
the reality is that if you're making 150k, you will need to either go with a very modest housing option (e.g. a cottage in a flood zone or on a busy street), or spend a little more than 375K to buy into a neighborhood where you'll fit in.
To do this responsibly, you need to do a combination of coming in with a larger (larger than 20%) down-payment. Also, the low rates do increase your buying power.
You assert this as a "reality" but I don't see any hard facts. I think you are presenting speculation, not reality.
To the contrary, I do see people making well under $150K being able to live reasonably comfortably in NJ, in my own county, in some of the nicer towns.
You assert this as a "reality" but I don't see any hard facts. I think you are presenting speculation, not reality.
To the contrary, I do see people making well under $150K being able to live reasonably comfortably in NJ, in my own county, in some of the nicer towns.
here are some "hard facts" about some of your favorite towns:
Median house values:
Oradell: 768K
Emerson: 601K
Westwood: 551K
source: Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitors sites is not allowed
I think it's fair to say that you're not buying the median housing option in one of these towns on an income of 150K. You might be able to buy a place in these towns, but you're definitely going to be shopping in the lower end of the inventory.
here are some "hard facts" about some of your favorite towns:
Median house values:
Oradell: 768K
Emerson: 601K
Westwood: 551K
source: Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitors sites is not allowed
I think it's fair to say that you're not buying the median housing option in one of these towns on an income of 150K. You might be able to buy a place in these towns, but you're definitely going to be shopping in the lower end of the inventory.
So what? The lower end of the inventory in towns like those is worth more to many people than the higher end of the inventory in towns way up in Sussex County. The prices reflect this.
If someone wants a BMW but has only enough for the 300-series, that person will be shopping the lower end of BMW's inventory. There are a lot of people who buy 300-series BMW's and consider it better than a top of the line Toyota. I wouldn't be one of those people, but they are out there. Any BMW would not be considered "modest" by most people, even the BMW's from the lower end of BMW's inventory. The bottom-of-the-line BMW would likely not be considered "modest" by anyone.
Again, it comes down to what people value. If someone values a good town with a good location over having to have a home that is the the median price or higher then that person can do it.
In the towns you're talking about, the lower end of the inventory will still be decent homes. They may be the smaller homes in those towns but those towns are made up of a lot of expensive, bigger homes.
If a family of 4-5 needs a 3 or 4 BR, 1.5 or 2 BA home and can find one on a piece of property that he feels is enough, why should it matter whether it's above, at, or below the median price for the town? Heck, if the person doesn't have a lot of money he should be GLAD to be below the median because his tax burden will be less.
We've discussed this before, but you always come back to this idea that the only homes available are some sort of rejects, some kind of dilapidated shacks or fixer-uppers. Indeed there are some fixer-uppers, but there are plenty of decent homes that are below the median in upper-middle-class towns. There certainly aren't ghetto-style condemned homes or tenements in those towns you mention.
That's the problem with talking about medians, or prices, or any other one factor completely out of context; it becomes very misleading. None of those things means anything on its own. It's irrational to simply dismiss "the lower end of the inventory" as being "modest" without looking at the big picture.
So yes, I'm still not seeing the "hard facts" about how people with $150K salaries would be struggling.
Last edited by Yac; 02-23-2010 at 06:40 AM..
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.) A conversation with some Canadian colleagues happened to turn to real estate. Again, the price of housing is eye-popping. Again, someone said, "but this is like the NYC of Canada. This is where you come if you're climbing the career ladder. This is where the stock market is, where the arts and culture are. You can't compare it to a Philadelphia or even a Chicago." 
