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Well come on out to I80 some day, except for train/bus into NYC we have NO mass transit so it's no win win out here. The only people who benefit are urban dwellers....I wish we had it..the train fare would more then likely be less then the gas, registration & insurance I pay every year....
As for bolded....because I am weary of subsidizing ...NJ Transit is a business and should be run as such...
If all modes of transportation (air for example) were run strictly as a business and forced to never run in the red then fares would be only accesible to the rich. Airline tickets woudl be $1000+ each way. But guess what? Everyone would complain about those methods of transportation are not accesible to the middle class or lower class.
There has to be some give on certain things. Sure you can argue there has been too much give in some areas and most people would agree but there has to be some.
Someone making $80K in NJ but paying $5k more to be here and make that $80K would be foolish to move someplace where he'd save that $5K but only make $50K. Well whaddya know, I AGREE with that.
And if that's the case, what's wrong with NJ? If in NJ you can make much more money, even WITH the higher taxes you are netting more money, then exactly how does NJ "suck"??? Or could that just be whining???
And when did I tell you or anyone to leave??? Now you're making more things up.
I don't tell anyone to leave unless they're telling me they WANT to leave. But, when people say they want to say but that the taxes and costs are unbearable, I do point out that if they were being honest they WOULD have left NJ. The fact that they are here proves that they CAN afford to stay but are just whining.
If you want to tea party, go right ahead, see what that will accomplish. What's preventing you from doing it?
Try using your vote. Try being an American and following the democratic process that's been in place in NJ for over 200 years. A new governor was elected, that's how it works. If you don't like the people who are elected by the majority in NJ, maybe look for a place where you fit in with the majority. What do you want to do? Rebel? Overthrow the NJ government?
You're asking me what I want to do? I want to follow the democratic process. I am not the one who thinks taxes are outrageous. I don't want to rebel, overthrow the government, or throw a little girl's "tea party" like some people want to do.
I pay the taxes and I earn the dough. I realize I can save $5k in taxes by moving to East Bumbutt, Georgia or wherever in the deep south the hot new "utopia" is, and I realize I'll also take a much bigger pay cut. So it's a good deal.
Sure, I'd love to pay South Carolina taxes and earn a NJ salary. You know what else I'd like? A new 2010 Lexus for the price of a 1999 Hyundai. Or a McMansion on 3 acres for the price of a trailer in a trailer park. In fact, I'd love a good sushi dinner tonight for the price of a Big Mac value meal.
Yeah, there are plenty of great high benefit things I want for an unreasonably low price. But I also realize that sometimes you pay a little more and get better value.
What's a better value (using your example)???
Make $80K and pay $12K in taxes (which is more than I pay anyway), or...
make $50K and pay $6K in taxes???
hmmm.... tough one.....
But NJ sucks because here you get the higher salary and not the low cost of living of somwhere else. It's like logic and reason flew south for the winter.
BCJ - You're logic may be quite sound when you're young and still working, but it begins to fall apart when you reach retirement age!
$25K and pay $10K taxes or
$25K and pay $2K taxes.
East Bumbutt or West Bumbutt looks pretty good at this point! Along with the house three times the size of the one you were living in, ....along with $400 a year car insurance! It's like ....why pay "Wedding Cake prices" for that little piece of "stale Entenmann's Crumb Cake"? Save that money...you're getting older every day!
East Bumbutt or West Bumbutt looks pretty good at this point! Along with the house three times the size of the one you were living in, ....along with $400 a year car insurance! It's like ....why pay "Wedding Cake prices" for that little piece of "stale Entenmann's Crumb Cake"? Save that money...you're getting older every day!
This is the question everyone needs to determine for themselves. I tried living in Texas and I moved back here. Why? I prefer this area overall then Texas. Sure I had a cheaper huge home with pool in Texas, more room than I would ever need but it sucked driving 20 minutes to anywhere. Where 20 minutes here gets me to 100x the places it did there. The benefits here fit my lifestyle better henced I moved back.
Some people may like the country and the slowness and space. I say go for it if you can. Personally you couldn't pay me to move to Flordia, Carolinas, Texas, mid country states. They offer nothing to me other than possible cheaper living and possibly better weather. (Not sure depressing heat is better than cold winters either)
Now Pacific Northwest looks interesting to me but also EXPENSIVE. So just goes to show you the more desirable places to live cost more money. Oh well. So I can save for retirement and live in Flordia or I can enjoy my life in a location I prefer and maybe not have saved enough. We all have a choice.
Well come on out to I80 some day, except for train/bus into NYC we have NO mass transit so it's no win win out here. The only people who benefit are urban dwellers....I wish we had it..the train fare would more then likely be less then the gas, registration & insurance I pay every year....
As for bolded....because I am weary of subsidizing ...NJ Transit is a business and should be run as such...
How about the roads ? Should they be a business too ? If I'm using the trains, should I have to subsidize people who drive ? And should NJ transit have to compete against subsidized modes of transportation ?
Not every place that doesn't have outrageous property taxes is some horrible backwater. Take a look at what everyone else pays in property taxes some time.
You can get a decent place in Philly with property taxes around 5k (or for that matter almost anywhere besides the New York metro area).
Then what's stopping people? What's keeping the whiners here from moving right over the border to Eastern PA?? Heck, most of them could do it without giving up their jobs because they'd still be able to commute even to NYC. So what's all the whining about then?? How are all these victims who are "stuck" here STUCK if that's not what's keeping them here?
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Originally Posted by elflord1973
BTW, it may surprised you to know that not everyone who moves is taking a pay cut. In any case, I don't think the fact that compensation is a little better in NJ is cause for complacency as far as the property tax situation is concerned.
No, it's no suprise to me. I had the opportunity to move to Phoenix years ago with no pay cut and I would have lived like a King out there. It happens. But it's far more rare than the people who move and do take a considerable pay cut.
But fine, if you want to take that excuse away from the whiners and admit that their pay isn't the reason they stay here, then what is??
From what you're saying, a disgruntled whiner in NJ paying high taxes in, say, Morris County should be able to move to the Philly area, live in as nice an area and not a backwater hellhole, save thousands in taxes, and even in a reasonable amount of time find a comparable job at comparable pay. And, if their family and friends are in NJ near Morris County, they won't be far from them, so the family and friends excuse really doesn't hold water.
So, with all the excuses about pay and family removed, why would people continue to stay if taxes are indeed "unbearable"???
Do any of you folks know what "unbearable" actually means??? (HINT: It doesn't mean "bearable but I don't like it".)
So what's your point, elflord? That people ultimately don't have the excuse of job/pay/living in a backwater hellhole as an excuse for being "stuck" in NJ??? I agree. Those are not valid excuses.
Throw in the fact that parts of Eastern PA/Philly area are well within 1 or 2 hours from Northern NJ (and closer yet to Central/Western NJ), what excuses do people have left???
IF the situation were truly as dire as people whine about, then they WOULD leave, they wouldn't stay and whine. That's why I'm sure they know better, they know inside their hearts that what they have in NJ can't be beat, and they make up this "unbearable" story and whine just to get a break on the costs of living here.
It's like the guy who shows up at the Mercedes dealer and whines that the cost is too high, and that Hyundais are cheaper and that the Mercedes should be as low priced as the Hyundai, and that the price of the Mercedes is "unbearable", and then when asked why he doesn't just buy a Hyundai he claims he is "forced" to buy a Mercedes, for his kids' safety, for his family, but the price is UNBEARABLE, he CAN'T afford it....then he pays for it anyway.
Yeah, right. Whiners, complainers, no leg to stand on, and as far as I'm concerned a bunch of cheapskates who will LIE to save a buck.
If the guy making 80K is being squeezed so badly, then why are so many people on this board complaining about public employees making these salaries?
This is not an accurate summary of the primary criticism with the way govt departments are run.
The issue with compensation is primarily benefits packages that are gamed at the expense of the tax payer (e.g. sick days being rolled over into a windfall bonus, an underfunded pension system), and compensation packages that are worth considerably more than 80k if you take benefits into account.
These guys have learned to pick the tax payer's pocket with impunity. Union deals cut all accountability out of the system and basically allow senior employees (as the union top brass are) to take a free ride at our expense.
BTW, I recall you complaining that tenure is necessary because you were almost unjustly fired as a non-tenured employee -- but that confuses the solution with the problem. To make tenured teachers more secure, they need to make everyone else less secure (e.g. the way "bumping" works is a great example of this)
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I also find it hilarious that the people that seem to be complaining the loudest here are the people who seem to be far wealthier than the public employee.
A republican doesn't win in NJ by only appealing to the very wealthy.
The middle class private sector employees don't think it's "funny" at all. They are fed up with being milked by the unions.
Then what's stopping people? What's keeping the whiners here from moving right over the border to Eastern PA?? Heck, most of them could do it without giving up their jobs because they'd still be able to commute even to NYC. So what's all the whining about then?? How are all these victims who are "stuck" here STUCK if that's not what's keeping them here?
Not everyone will just get up an go. Some people have ties here -- whether they own a house or have family or whatever, so they decide to stay and fight. Some may well be, as you say, just whiners.
I don't think that anyone who is not complacent about the property tax situation here is a "whiner" though.
But there are others who are packing their bags and leaving, and this comes up every time someone studies inter-state migration patterns. NJ is losing the producers.
This is the question everyone needs to determine for themselves. I tried living in Texas and I moved back here. Why? I prefer this area overall then Texas. Sure I had a cheaper huge home with pool in Texas, more room than I would ever need but it sucked driving 20 minutes to anywhere. Where 20 minutes here gets me to 100x the places it did there. The benefits here fit my lifestyle better henced I moved back.
Some people may like the country and the slowness and space. I say go for it if you can. Personally you couldn't pay me to move to Flordia, Carolinas, Texas, mid country states. They offer nothing to me other than possible cheaper living and possibly better weather. (Not sure depressing heat is better than cold winters either)
Now Pacific Northwest looks interesting to me but also EXPENSIVE. So just goes to show you the more desirable places to live cost more money. Oh well. So I can save for retirement and live in Flordia or I can enjoy my life in a location I prefer and maybe not have saved enough. We all have a choice.
NatasNJ -I think a lot depends on where in NJ you move from. After spending 53 years in Paterson (probably about 52 too many! LOL!) I can't say I miss very much! The food and relatives...yes of course, but they drive down to visit and I'm always on the phone with them anyway! I have a lot of "neighbors" who also gave up on Florida. It seems the only "happy Floridians" are the ones in those big Miami houses who are always partying ...before they get shot on an episode of CSI:Miami. NC is like the "happy medium" and I do enjoy seeing horses rather than an endless line of little Cape Cods! You have to go with whatever makes you happy! Unfortunately, taxes in NJ seem to increase at a more rapid rate than the increases in my pension, so moving, and the couple of years research I did before I finally moved, made it a very Spock-like logical decision! Everyone's mileage may vary!!
Very easy answer. See when teachers and other munipal employees were making 10 to 20k not soo long ago these people could laugh at them. Ohh the jokester they are and were. Teacher were the punch line to every poor joke. Now that teachers have pulled themselves up the American way (politically) they dont like it anymore. They prefer when teachers and other state employees were dirt poor. Well the joke is on them. You critics should have been around 15 years ago and see what you had to say about teachers making 20k if not less.
This is a bit of an exaggeration. When my mother retired as a teacher in the Jersey City school system in the late 90s she was making $80K. Even so, the amazing benefits were justified when they made less money. Now that their salaries are in line with the private sector, their benefits should be in line as well. 401Ks instead of pensions, pay more of their own health insurance, etc.
BergenCountyJohnny;12867585]No, it's all OK, as long as the governor has (R) next to his name
I'm not much of a gamblin' man but I'd be willing to bet big that plenty of those that voted for Corzine in the most recent election did so because of the (D) next to his name.
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then the whiners won't whine or make up insulting names for him. Same as they do with Presidents
Time will tell however, Christiy's already been politically maligned because of his physical appearance (since he's a fat boy).
That's not too good of a start on behalf of those who "lost" the election, imo.
Last edited by knoxgarden; 02-13-2010 at 03:08 AM..
Reason: language
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Or could that just be whining???
