Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
So what do we get for all of this? NJ ranked 36th out of 50 in mean SAT scores in 2008, almost 300 points lower than Iowa which spends under the national average per pupil at $8,360.
36th? NO! It can't be! NJ has the BEST schools in the country! The BEST, I tell you! I see it here at City-Data all the time! They can't possibly be ranked 36th! I demand that these test scores be re-evaluated!!
Everything said about our tax dollars going to the republican states is so beside the fact that we are talking about REAL ESTATE TAXES, not FEDERAL INCOME TAX.
The reason we are talking about property tax is because our state does not get back resources from the government that would offset our property taxes. That's the point.
Someone living in Alabama doesn't have to pay as much property tax because the state gets so much extra money from the Federal government (and that's our money, being redistributed to them) that the state of Alabama can hand out money to every school and that keeps their property taxes lower. On top of that, Alabama is satisfied to have bottom-level schools. But the fact is that they are taking large chunks of money from us through the Fed. Taxes.
[quote=hkfrost;12914750Our REAL ESTATE TAXES(mostly made up of school tax) do NOT leave New Jersey, to go to any other states. But you know what? They are being redistributed, as Johnny says, but not to other states. They are being redistributed to our poorer cities: Newark, Trenton, Camden, etc.[/quote]
Right. And they are being redistributed because our state has no money to give to those poorer districts, because what our state gets from income tax is low and what our state should get from the Fed. Gov't is going to the Alabamas and Tennessees and other welfare states.
What is taken from our property taxes to be redistributed to a handful of poorer schools in the state is PEANUTS compared to what is taken from our Fed. taxes and redistributed OUT of NJ, to other states.
It's hard for me to take seriously anyone's indignation at having the small amounts from our high property taxes redistributed to poor school districts while they remain silent about - or worse, want to distract from - the millions being poured out of our state and into others. That's suspiciously selective outrage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkfrost
And since you brought politics into the discussion Johnny, I will add that those are the big time DEM cities! Our Dem politicians pander to the populations of these cities to buy their votes so that they can stay in power. It all comes down to power. They don't care about educating our poor. They care about staying in power. And just so you don't think that I believe only the dems are selfishly corrupt, it holds true for the repubs too. In NJ, however, Dems happen to rule the day. So they are to blame presently. And this my fellow New Jerseyans is the reason why our REAL Estate taxes are so high. OUR money is MANDATED to be flushed down OUR own NJ URBAN Sewers. Not down Arizona's sewers. Other states have lower real estate (education)taxes, because they don't have mandates to send a disproportional amount of education taxes to their poor cities. Their taxes do not get flushed down the tubes to buy votes. They have other problems, but our BIG problem is mandated redistribution of wealth. And thats the way it is...
Whatever our "Dem" politicians are "flushing down our Urban Sewers" in NJ is a drop in the bucket compared to what National Republican Politicians are stealing from us on the national level to give to the backwards states like Tennessee, Alabama, etc. More of our money is flushed down the Sewers of Arizona, Alabama, Tennessee, etc. than our own.
I don't know about you, but before I worry about a small amount of my property taxes going to othere schools IN MY OWN STATE, I'm going to be more upset about the HUGE amounts of money flowing to schools, roads, welfare, etc. in OTHER STATES.
Follow the money trail.
Why are property taxes high? To pay for the best schools.
Well why aren't our income taxes offsetting our property taxes??? Because our income taxes hardly cover our other state-level expenses. Why do our income taxes barely cover our state-level expenses but states like Alabama and Arizona can cover theirs?? Because New Jersey gets very little money back from the Federal government while states like Arizona and Alabama are given tons of extra money from the Federal Government.
The reason we have high property taxes is because the Fed. gov't takes our fed taxes, then re-distributes half of them to other states. This leaves NJ with a lot of services to provide a lot of people which it can't cover, so it pushes off the responsibility for things like schools, police, etc. to each municipality. Each Municipality wants the BEST and since they are in charge of their own towns they but THE BEST. The fact that the state isn't involved means two things:
1. The State isn't giving them money and helping fund their schools
2. The State has very little say in telling them they have any limits on what they can spend.
THAT IS WHY YOUR PROPERTY TAXES ARE HIGH.
It all goes back to the Fed.. Gov't taking most of our money and giving it away to other states.
It's interesting to me that people want money from Mommy gov't to offset property taxes but people don't want mommy gov't to have a say in how money is spent. And it's funny to me that people blame the state of NJ when in fact the biggest culprits for their high taxes are their own municipality and the Federal gv't; the state of NJ is hardly involved, they receive very little money and they distribute very little money.
Those ratios of federal to state expenditures are largely a result of entities that are under the auspices of the federal government, which is to say, those states that have the largest presence of federal government employees and land holdings are the ones that are the greatest beneficiaries. That is why that Republican backwater Washington D.C. has the largest ratio of federal to state ratio: D.C. gets back $6.64 from the federal government for every dollar it remits. Virginia, which is home of the Pentagon, as well as Ft Belvoir, Norfolk NAS, Quantico, etc, is also a big benefactor. Maryland, another Republican backwater, is in receipt of 1.44 for every dollar, which is due to a number of federal entities such as NOAA, the Census, and other federal government entities (and federal salaries in Montgomery and Princes George Counties) being in proximity to the nation's capitol. New Jersey, in contrast, has very little federal government land holdings, save for the "megabase" in the Pine Barrens and Picatinny. New Jersey, I think, has the largest percentage of privately owned land parcels as a percentage of the entire state land cover. In contrast, the federal government controls about 60% of the entire land cover of New Mexico, be it through military facilities, BLM, or National Park Service control. Those places are in receipt of federal dollars, obviously, for administration.
The information is publically available. I did not make it up. You're welcome to go verify it yourself.
In any discussion involving debate or argument, the burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. Just saying, "This is how it is, go verify it yourself" doesn't work. It's not up to me to verify your claims.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973
And it is not just one school nurse, it's an army of maintenance workers, security workers, secretaries, who are getting more than the math teacher.
Show me the figures. If it's so "publically available" then provide it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973
You are being asked, because you insist that spending the extra money is necessary to get "the best" education. My argument is that having highly paid maintenance workers, nurses and secretaries doesn't really help that much.
No. I don't insist that it's necessary. I said that towns, left to their own decision-making about schools, want the best and therefore end up paying a lot of money. Whether or not the amount they spend is justifiable I have no idea - maybe it is, and maybe it isn't. It doesn't matter, though - the town decided that it's worth it and has committed to it. It is the business of THAT town. Outsiders are not involvled. If Hoboken wants to pay a million bucks to a janitor because they think it makes their school better, and their residents are paying it through their prop. tax, how am I involved at all??? Nobody outside of Hoboken is. So why are you asking me???
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973
Perhaps you'd care to explain how paying your 9-12 math teachers about half as much as the school nurse leads to getting "the best". The "best" maintenance workers, security staff, and school nurses (though perhaps not "the best" math teachers) ?
It's a canard that throwing away all that money improves the quality of education.
"My" 9-12 math teachers?? I'm not from Hoboken. They're not "my" 9-12 math teachers.
I'm not sure what you're asking me about, or why you are trying to convince me that "it's a canard that throwing away all that money improves the quality of education".... I never said otherwise.
The fact remains that property taxes are high because:
1. Municipalities get little to no help from the state, and
2. Municipalities decide for themselves what to spend on their own services, including and especially the schools
Why doesn't the state help out? Because they don't have the money. Where are they supposed to get the money? Income taxes aren't that high, because every governor wants to keep them low so as not to be unpopular. There's no sales tax on clothes or food. But most of all, for the amount of people the State of NJ serves, the state gets hardly anything from the Federal gov't (even from what our own residents pay to fed taxes) while other states collect extra bonuses, far above what their own populations sent in.
But somehow it's all the unions' fault.
Wrong. That's just nonsense, stupid conservative political agenda when ironically it is the conservatives who are to blame in the first place for robbing our state at the national level.
I find it hard to believe that everyone is so naive as to buy the whole "blame the unions" excuse; I'm sure many who whine the loudest know full well it's just a way to distract from the reality of things in which conservatives are manipulating (not fighting against) wealth re-distribution and are effectively fleecing states like NJ while getting people to believe "it's the unions' fault."
No doubt Christie, as a Republican who supports the national Republican agenda, will do his best to propogate this fleecing. He'll go after unions while allowing the Fed. gov't to continue to re-distribute money from NJ to welfare states.
In any discussion involving debate or argument, the burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. Just saying, "This is how it is, go verify it yourself" doesn't work. It's not up to me to verify your claims.
Show me the figures. If it's so "publically available" then provide it.
I did provide it. I made a factual statement, and provided a source for my facts (hoboken411.com). I'm not sure what else you require -- do I need to mail a hard copy of the document in question to your home address ?
The source I cited was not some general sweeping statement based on unverifiable information. It was clear and specific (it identified not only the salaries, but the names of the employees receiving those salaries, their title, etc). For you to dismiss it as "hearsay" is just plain dishonest and for you to claim that I'm putting the burden of proof on you when I suggest that you go to the source I cited if you want to verify it is just plain silly.
Quote:
Whether or not the amount they spend is justifiable I have no idea - maybe it is, and maybe it isn't.
I'm arguing that it isn't, and I provided an example.
Quote:
It doesn't matter, though - the town decided that it's worth it and has committed to it. It is the business of THAT town.
If you think that this example is atypical or anomolous, you're welcome to provide example of schools with more efficient budgets.
Quote:
Outsiders are not involvled. If Hoboken wants to pay a million bucks to a janitor because they think it makes their school better, and their residents are paying it through their prop. tax, how am I involved at all??? Nobody outside of Hoboken is. So why are you asking me???
Actually, it's an abbott district, so you are involved if you pay NJ state taxes
Quote:
"My" 9-12 math teachers?? I'm not from Hoboken. They're not "my" 9-12 math teachers.
Feel free to post the list of salaries for your school, and I'll identify similar patterns.
Quote:
No doubt Christie, as a Republican who supports the national Republican agenda, will do his best to propogate this fleecing. He'll go after unions while allowing the Fed. gov't to continue to re-distribute money from NJ to welfare states.
I'm glad that you've abandoned your completely non-credible position of complacency and instead found a target to blame for high taxes.
I agree that NJ is a big donor state (3000 per capita), but it is also a big spender (about 50% more per student than the median state)
I would be for going after both discrepancies (out of state wealth transfer and out of control spending).
Last edited by elflord1973; 02-16-2010 at 09:52 AM..
I did provide it. I made a factual statement, and provided a source for my facts (hoboken411.com). I'm not sure what else you require -- do I need to mail a hard copy of the document in question to your home address ?
I went to hoboken411.com, and in the mess of links and words on that page there is no mention of an overpaid nurse. None.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973
I'm arguing that it isn't, and I provided an example.
That's beside the point, and it is of no concern to those who aren't paying for Hoboken schools. If I complained to you that my friend's wife wastes his money because she thinks it's worth paying extra for Boar's Head salami over Hormel, would you care?
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973
If you think that this example is atypical or anomolous, you're welcome to provide example of schools with more efficient budgets.
1. The burden of proof isn't on me to disprove that all schools are wasting tons of money. It's your assertion, you prove it.
2. For the purposes of this discussion, it hardly matters, because the point is that if town X in NJ decides to spend $5,000 per taxpayer on the school, that $5,000 per taxpayer would be a lot easier to pay if those taxpayers' received a Federal benefit that was fair rather than having money paid to the Fed. gov't handed over to people in New Mexico and Alabama. You're worrying about pennies that you speculate to be wasted (I have seen no proof yet) while turning a blind eye to the re-distribution of billions of dollars through fed. taxation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973
Actually, it's an abbott district, so you are involved if you pay NJ state taxes
I'll bet that the amount of money coming from my pocket and going to all the abbott district is pennies. I'm more concerned that half what we pay in Fed. taxes gets sent to Alabama, New Mexico, etc. because those are not pennies, but thousands of dollars per person which neverr come back to benefit me or my state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973
Feel free to post the list of salaries for your school, and I'll identify similar patterns.
My town's expenditures are none of anyone's business except people who live here. I mean, I could ask you to post your personal expenditures and then give you a critique and tell you where you're wasting money, but it's really none of my business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973
I'm glad that you've abandoned your completely non-credible position of complacency and instead found a target to blame for high taxes.
I've never been complacent. I just see the situation and know what it is and know not to be suckered into the lies of the conservative agenda. It's to bad so many conservatives want to keep pushing your agenda to the point of beinig irrational.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973
I agree that NJ is a big donor state (3000 per capita), but it is also a big spender (about 50% more per student than the median state)
I would be for going after both discrepancies (out of state wealth transfer and out of control spending).
Why not worry about the dollars before the pennies??? How many cliche's do I need to give for people to understand???
If you were shot and fell on the ground and scraped your knee and elbow, would you focus on stopping the bleeding from a big gunshot wound or would you go hunting for a bandaid for a scratch on your arm??? Would you cry out, "OOWWWW, HELP, I FELL AND SCRATCHED MY ARM!!! Oh, and I have a gunshot wound in my head, but SOMEONE GET ME A BANDAID FOR MY ARM!!! OWWW MY ARM!!!! Oh, and I agree that my gunshot wound in my head needs medical attention, if we get a chance to find a doctor or something, but RIGHT NOW I NEED A BANDAID FOR MY ARM!!! OW IT HURTS, IT'S ALMOST AS BAD AS A PAPERCUT!!! Oh yeah the gunshot wound in the head hurts, I guess, maybe - I'm not worried about that right now though..."
The unions don't get it. They are dependent on the tax payers, not the other way around.
If the unions want to pick a fight with the tax payer, they will ultimately lose, because the unions need the tax payer, but the tax payer does NOT need the unions.
Go Christie ! Slaughter the pigs !
I agree!! They have gotton so greedy, wont even give up a dime!! There is no working with them, they just got to have it all!! How can you win??? Hey Im all for compromise, but these unions dont want to give an inch! Good post.
I went to hoboken411.com, and in the mess of links and words on that page there is no mention of an overpaid nurse. None.
One link you can always find it : nj by the numbers. Select "licensed educators payroll". Select the Hoboken school district. You'll find the school nurse on page 4 (the job code is 3114). Salary for this person is >90k. The lower level 9-12 math teachers are making low 50s.
I'd be happy to produce more of these numbers for other districts, if you're interested.
As for your towns expenses being no-one else's business -- that would be true if it weren't for the fact that they use collective bargaining with the unions to negotiate all of those contracts -- so incentive structures aren't likely to differ all that much as all negotiations have a common counterparty.
I agree , theres alot of over paided ppl and ridiculous pensions , but can we slim that down before we talk about cutting things and laying off 1000s. Becuz what purpose does that serve , the economy is starting to rebound and your going to cut things? To me Christie , is just another greedy Trenton Pigeon , who doesn't care about the people and will see how New Jerseyites turn on him. Now i'm hearing a All-Union Strike is in the works and a March to Trenton. Personal maybe he should take a pay leave.
36th? NO! It can't be! NJ has the BEST schools in the country! The BEST, I tell you! I see it here at City-Data all the time! They can't possibly be ranked 36th! I demand that these test scores be re-evaluated!!
but i guess no one will mention the fact that NJ has the highest graduation rate in the country right
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Virginia, which is home of the Pentagon, as well as Ft Belvoir, Norfolk NAS, Quantico, etc, is also a big benefactor. Maryland, another Republican backwater, is in receipt of 1.44 for every dollar, which is due to a number of federal entities such as NOAA, the Census, and other federal government entities (and federal salaries in Montgomery and Princes George Counties) being in proximity to the nation's capitol. New Jersey, in contrast, has very little federal government land holdings, save for the "megabase" in the Pine Barrens and Picatinny. New Jersey, I think, has the largest percentage of privately owned land parcels as a percentage of the entire state land cover. In contrast, the federal government controls about 60% of the entire land cover of New Mexico, be it through military facilities, BLM, or National Park Service control. Those places are in receipt of federal dollars, obviously, for administration.
