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Yes, but the point is that everyone gets to opt out if they don't think the compensation scheme is proper. Employees can leave, or shareholders can sell their shares. Customers can take their businesses elsewhere.
If you're in the private sector, and you can't find someone who is willing and able to pay for your products and services (and/or investors who will take on risk for you while you get those products ready for the market), they stop paying and you have to make do with less.
Tax payers don't have such remedies. Therefore, you I don't completely understand what your complaint is about -- you might not like for example Goldman's compensation scheme. If that's the case, I'd suggest to avoid retaining their services next time you're thinking of buying a company or taking your company public, and also selling all of your shares.
What don't you understand? A government provides a service for a price. If you don't like the compensation scheme for your government, you can:
A) remain a voter and try to change the government through voting and political action,
OR
B) find a government that provides a compensation:service scheme that you find more to your liking and do business with that government
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Originally Posted by elflord1973
It could also be the case that the markets are right and you are wrong.
It is relative to the source of morality. For many people who worship money, the markets are always right. For those of us who have a morality based in Christianity or even just a humanitarian morality, it is what's good for people that's always right.
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Originally Posted by elflord1973
Actually I read and sometimes post in the philadelphia forum. But I'm happy to discuss the problems you are facing in NJ. Take a seat.
I'm sure you are, even though it doesn't concern you, because you don't live here. Anyway, you have no idea what life is like in NJ anymore, you're a hick now.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,678,989 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obrero
Who cares about your sister? Do you think what happens to your sister happens to all teachers? She clearly teaches in a "special school" that is hardly the norm. I do care about Morris county and that is where I posted wages from.
You asked where are the low salaries. Not where are the low salaries in Morris County. The answer to the question that you asked is South Jersey. Had you asked the question that you intended, I would have posted nothing.
The comment about my sister was intended for another poster, who seems to feel that she has all of the answers for the merit pay question. When I posted the obviously non-tradional conditions that my sister works under, and asked how that would work to be fair under merit pay, the response was to demand the district, accuse me of lying & not answer the question.
You asked where are the low salaries. Not where are the low salaries in Morris County. The answer to the question that you asked is South Jersey. Had you asked the question that you intended, I would have posted nothing.
The comment about my sister was intended for another poster, who seems to feel that she has all of the answers for the merit pay question. When I posted the obviously non-tradional conditions that my sister works under, and asked how that would work to be fair under merit pay, the response was to demand the district, accuse me of lying & not answer the question.
I believe I answered the question. The answer is that you don't need a "one size fits all" approach to merit pay. The fact that there is no "one size fits all" solution does not imply that there is no solution.
I don't think there is an obligation to come up with a way to use test scores as a metric for special ed teachers as a precondition to doing the same for math and english teachers. Basically, the question of what to do about special ed teachers is a red herring -- the primary goal of merit pay is not to improve the quality of special education (or for that matter, school bands, drama clubs, school plays, etc).
What don't you understand? A government provides a service for a price. If you don't like the compensation scheme for your government, you can:
A) remain a voter and try to change the government through voting and political action,
OR
B) find a government that provides a compensation:service scheme that you find more to your liking and do business with that government
This isn't realistic, because relocation is very expensive. For those who have houses to sell (they are required to "purchase" those services to keep what is supposed to be their "property"), they have a realtor commission, and then there are the expenses of moving, having to find a job at the new location, and costs that aren't as easy to measure (moving away from family, friends, etc).
So while I agree that it's a good thing to have several states that present a variety of "deals" to the potential resident (something which ironically most partisan democrats are against), taxation should not be confused with a voluntary purchase of services. It is true that it is possible to opt out (in that sense, these taxes are less coercive than taxes at higher jurisdictions right up to the federal level where it becomes almost prohibitively difficult to opt out), but not without being forced to sell ones residence, and incur substantial costs.
Quote:
It is relative to the source of morality. For many people who worship money, the markets are always right. For those of us who have a morality based in Christianity or even just a humanitarian morality, it is what's good for people that's always right.
Cooperation has a much better history than coercion, as far as being "good for people" is concerned.
Quote:
I'm sure you are, even though it doesn't concern you, because you don't live here. Anyway, you have no idea what life is like in NJ anymore, you're a hick now.
It does concern me, because I still have friends there. Besides, I enjoy coming back to gloat about leaving
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,678,989 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973
I believe I answered the question. The answer is that you don't need a "one size fits all" approach to merit pay. The fact that there is no "one size fits all" solution does not imply that there is no solution.
I don't think there is an obligation to come up with a way to use test scores as a metric for special ed teachers as a precondition to doing the same for math and english teachers. Basically, the question of what to do about special ed teachers is a red herring -- the primary goal of merit pay is not to improve the quality of special education (or for that matter, school bands, drama clubs, school plays, etc).
Yes you did. I did not mean you.
Yes, that's the ugly part of the merit pay "solution" Some things just don't fit it, or at least fit it well. It's one of those things that doesn't fit the sound bites that some other people have quoted. I thought that your response was well thought out, but was pressed for time earlier & didn't say that.
Perhaps the teacher needs a little lesson in comprehension? I said "I see plenty of 100k earners"...not I see plenty of teachers making 100k. Anyway you should understand that "subject supervisors, superintendents, principals, guidance directors" all count as teaching staff to the average tax payer.
Maybe you should reread it.
"This site shows teacher salaries from 2008-2009 for Morris, Sussex, Somerset, Passiac and Warren. Not too many are living under the povertly line...or even close to it. I see plenty of 100k earners. Where are the low salaries I hear people complaining about???"
You referred initially to teachers. Nowhere did you remotely change inference to who you were speaking of.
And if the average tax payer does not understand the difference between teachers and administrators no wonder this discussion as a society is as inane as it has been.
OK so NJ really doesn't have the 2nd highest cost of living.
What? Can you read?
NJ is number two for cost of living in 2009, behind Hawaii who has the largest..
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Next your cause and effect are interesting. Because the state that ranks 32nd in education does something then we should not because it will cause us to fall in rank. Mmmmm so they use pencils and paper we should avoid them because we will fall in rank. Oh yes I bet they serve hot lunches too, we need to avoid them at all costs. Please show me where there is a correlation between merit pay and falling test scores.
I am talking about the fact that you want to totally revamp a state education system that works by every measure out there in favor of one that isn't even in the top half. Your source itself mentioned that of the three schools it looked at only one had statistical improvement in test scores and that since the schools being modified were not randomly chosen that the results maybe skewed.
Yet, you want to adopt merit pay lock, stock and barrel because you think it will lower your taxes. At least stop pretending its about bettering the schools. You have a right to want your taxes to do down but stop pretending its about making the schools better because you have done nothing to show that merit pay would work for that here.
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You have finally swerved into the real teachers argument, give us an unlimited supply of money and education will be top notch.
LOL!!!! Nope. I do teach in the top district in the state and we have a very low pupil costs. Less than 13k per students in my district. I have told you multiple times that we (our union) have agreed to the freeze and the 1.5 but thats still not enough for you is it? I do not want MORE money I want the money we NEED in order to educate our students. How do you teach chemistry without chemicals? I know its crazy to want things like that.
Quote:
Hoboken spends roughly $22k per student and the schools are mediocre at best. It has been shown time and again that a quality education can be had without bankrupting the state.
And you think its the TEACHERS taking that money ???? LOL!!!!
Jeez you really do drink the conservative Kool-aid don't you?
I know its OT but you really should know that BP only has to pay $75mil due to the Oil Pollution act and the complete clean up with likely cost upwards of $12bil. Even apply the more stringent laws in place of the OPA (which may not happen) they will only pay 2/3 of the clean up.
"This site shows teacher salaries from 2008-2009 for Morris, Sussex, Somerset, Passiac and Warren. Not too many are living under the povertly line...or even close to it. I see plenty of 100k earners. Where are the low salaries I hear people complaining about???"
You referred initially to teachers. Nowhere did you remotely change inference to who you were speaking of.
And if the average tax payer does not understand the difference between teachers and administrators no wonder this discussion as a society is as inane as it has been.
I wrote 100k earners, not teachers. Do not try to infer what I mean. Try to read and understand what is actually written....
Those are just part of the 21 different measures used to calculate the ranking. Are you then advocating a single measure approach? If so which one?
OK. So then the debate is about lower taxes not better schools. Thats fine. There surely are ways to lower taxes.
1. Increase class size. Instead of 20 students per class room even just uping that to 30-35 will mean at least 1/3 less teachers.
2. Consolidate schools if not districts. Instead of 1200 pupil schools like Manasquan, have all the small towns consolidate to larger schools. Having 4-5K students per building will save lots of money on maintenance and shared services.
3. Cut extracurriculars. Drama club, band, sports, academic teams, key club, etc are all paid stipends for teachers and coaches.
4. Remove classes except for core content classes. No more electives.
5. Remove computers and technology support personnel. Computer labs are costly to build and maintain.
All of those taken together could cut school expenses at least in half which would save people drastically on their property taxes.
Well there you have it. Property taxes cut in half. This sounds like the schools I attended. Most politicians have no clue on how to cut. An Ocean County town votes down the budget-the peoples wishes and only way to do anything, it goes to the town council and guess what they do. A 38 million dollar budget the council cuts only 200,000 and sends it back to be ratified. They cut less than one percent. They postponed buying 100,000 worth of books and cut one program. Where are the drastic cuts that the voters wanted. What a friggen scam. We(THE MAJORITY) want a decent size cut, not less than 1 percent.
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