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None of the tours I mentioned are "commercialized;" the folks leading them are knowledgeable members of their societies who have developed ways to appropriately share their culture with interested outsiders...is it wrong for those people to be compensated in some way? It's really no different than someone who makes and sells traditional arts like pottery or fetishes: as ABQConvict's story illustrates, for many Pueblo people traditional knowledge is more valuable and precious than any handicraft. Why should we then expect that knowledge to be given away freely, especially in a culture that values secrecy and discretion around such matters?
Outsiders have been commodifying and profiting from Native culture for more than a century now. If anyone is to make money off of indigenous culture, shouldn't it be members of the community themselves?
Being compensated for things like conducting a tour and maintaining museum/center/parking/brochures is fair (and commercial tours work for some people)
This is not what I said...you should re-read. You did not understand.
Taos does not allow people to visit "freely" either...currently, the admission fee is $16 and visitors must follow strict rules of behavior.
Protective secrecy is integral to Pueblo society, and a big part of what's allowed traditional culture to survive. It's worth understanding that if you intend to learn more about it.
Freely - I didn't mean "free" as in no-fee, LOL, I meant to freely walk without being restricted to particular territory.
If you read my previous posts you'd understand that I know about the reason for protectiveness of culture (and that not all official tribal lands treat the subject the same way)...please read what I said earlier.
America has taken the path of taking the land from Native Americans and at the same time privatizing a lot of that acquired land - so a lot of private land that is not in Native American hands is also off limits, may be fenced and/or posted. If you go outside the States you find a very, very different situation about land use and access for all. It's unfortunate what things came to. Native cultures have to protect themselves....and then private land holdings are being protected as well from everyone (with guns and cops), by may be only few holders of huge land territories (ranches, forest land, etc)...it's very different from the rest of the world (and quite unusual). So in some tribal jurisdiction one can feel this way: if they fenced/posted much of the private land around, why should I allow any outsiders come and freely walk around our territory, which is justified....(not this way in most tribal lands, though)
Pueblos each have a different yearly celebration that is open to the public, otherwise the pueblo belongs to the inhabitants.
One exception is Taos Pueblo which is open every day, although you will not see many local people outdoors during "open" hours. We still found Taos Pueblo interesting to spend several hours at. I especially enjoyed the dogs that hung out around outside Morning Talk Indian Shop, they were the coolest and handsomest dogs.
The Taos Pueblo is not open every day.
It is open on many days but it would be wise to check ahead as there are special days it is closed.
I assume you can walk in any people's neighborhood in ABQ, where you seem to live without feeling like you're a museum exibit. You also can walk anywhere in VA pretty much
Yes, you probably can, but you don't see"walkers" peering in peoples houses or taking their pictures or throwing trash in their only source of water, the river that runs through the pueblo (Taos). Nor do you see dozens of people doing those things all at the same time. If you did, you would probably get to hear the quaint old fashion sound of police sirens.
Pueblos are different from most other tribes in the US because they are still inhabiting their ancestral lands where they built towns ("pueblos") centuries ago that have been in continuous use since then, and have been continually assaulted by outsiders since the arrival of Europeans, whether through violence or disrespect. They have not been relocated the way many other US tribes have, so they have more history to preserve. They are sovereign nations that have the right to restrict visitation from non-members.
There are many Pueblos where you can wander around if you choose to, where there are no physical barriers or signs expressly prohibiting it, but this is neither welcomed nor encouraged and you can expect to be treated with suspicion. Some have food vending stands along highways located away from traditional dwellings. Many have visitor centers open year-round which is the appropriate place to learn about them on-site.
Yes, you probably can, but you don't see"walkers" peering in peoples houses or taking their pictures or throwing trash in their only source of water, the river that runs through the pueblo (Taos). Nor do you see dozens of people doing those things all at the same time. If you did, you would probably get to hear the quaint old fashion sound of police sirens.
I think tourists do this in ABQ too...just the city being big makes it not obvious. I commented on gawking and photographic tourists above. I think in ABQ people including locals freely throw small trash without any police sirens, by the way, judging by the quantities of it on the roadsides.
There're a few locations in the States outside the pueblos that could benefit from closing the place for all tourists, they're overrun.
Pueblos are different from most other tribes in the US because they are still inhabiting their ancestral lands where they built towns ("pueblos") centuries ago that have been in continuous use since then, and have been continually assaulted by outsiders since the arrival of Europeans, whether through violence or disrespect. They have not been relocated the way many other US tribes have, so they have more history to preserve. They are sovereign nations that have the right to restrict visitation from non-members.
There are many Pueblos where you can wander around if you choose to, where there are no physical barriers or signs expressly prohibiting it, but this is neither welcomed nor encouraged and you can expect to be treated with suspicion. Some have food vending stands along highways located away from traditional dwellings. Many have visitor centers open year-round which is the appropriate place to learn about them on-site.
Were're, though, most tribes in the West in general not relocated and current tribal land holdings being located in ancestral lands areas, in the Western States? I thought it was more of what happened in the Eastern US, where many were forcefully relocated to Oklahoma Territory.
Being compensated for things like conducting a tour and maintaining museum/center/parking/brochures is fair (and commercial tours work for some people)
This is not what I said...you should re-read. You did not understand.
Your original post suggests you want to be able to wander around and soak up a culture's traditional ritual life - "ancient shamanistic beliefs" - for your own edification, without restriction and without having to compensate any member of that culture for the privilege. I and others here had hoped to explain the many good reasons why that kind of open access is anathema to a society that values secrecy around ceremonial life so highly, for very good reasons. Perhaps it's you that doesn't understand?
At any rate, as you yourself point out the traditional lands of Native people extend well beyond their modern reservations. Pueblo ceremonial landscapes are extensive, so go take a hike just about anywhere in northern or western NM and rest comfortably in that knowledge.
Your original post suggests you want to be able to wander around and soak up a culture's traditional ritual life - "ancient shamanistic beliefs" - for your own edification, without restriction and without having to compensate any member of that culture for the privilege. I and others here had hoped to explain the many good reasons why that kind of open access is anathema to a society that values secrecy around ceremonial life so highly, for very good reasons. Perhaps it's you that doesn't understand?
At any rate, as you yourself point out the traditional lands of Native people extend well beyond their modern reservations. Pueblo ceremonial landscapes are extensive, so go take a hike just about anywhere in northern or western NM and rest comfortably in that knowledge.
No, I don't need "education" on spiritual belief systems or "soak" it in the way you said it...you still don't understand. I have more connection to ancient shamanism than you can guess. I doubt you have connection to ancient land spirits yourself, the way you talk about this stuff - if you did, you'd know no education or "soaking" as you put it, can create this connection. Not sure what is the reason for your hostility to a simple question of walking around...I'll leave it on your conscience. You assumed I'm stupid or uneducated and tried to explain me (over and over, despite me stating multiple times that I already know that) the reason why many pueblo lands are closed....why are you so arrogant assuming I don't know that?
I asked IF there're ANY pueblo that allow a visitor to walk around, not WHY many do not allow that. Again, you should re-read what I posted, may be then you can understand...finally.
Were're, though, most tribes in the West in general not relocated and current tribal land holdings being located in ancestral lands areas, in the Western States? I thought it was more of what happened in the Eastern US, where many were forcefully relocated to Oklahoma Territory.
Natives in the west were generally not subject to forcible relocation to the same near-total extent that Eastern tribes - especially in the Midwest - were, but many were still pushed off most if not all of their traditional homelands. Most Western tribes that still occupy "ancestral lands" are restricted to a tiny portion of what they originally occupied, as determined by the US government with no regard for traditional resources or sacred spaces. Look at the Lakota or the Cheyenne, or in NM the Mescalero Apache, who once roamed the entire Southeastern portion of the state and are now restricted to a mere 450,000 acres of it. This is true even for the Navajo, despite their huge reservation located in their traditional country: Dinetah, the original home of the Navajo, is beyond the boundaries of their current reservation.
And while, as aries63 points out, most of the Pueblos are still on or near their traditional villages they've also lost most of their original land base, with former villages and other sacred sites now "owned" by the government or private individuals. This book is a great exploration of that for Zuni Pueblo if you're interested in learning more.
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