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IMHO this is one of those topics that Americans are incapable of discussing rationally. Mostly because several unrelated language topics inevitably get shoved together.
This one has: 1) kids learning in their native language, 2) immigrants not learning the language of the land, 3) English not being the official language of the USA, 4) other countries having multilingual populations and 5) finally the benefits of being multilingual.
So then:
1) I attended DC public in the 70s and we had our fair share of immigrants at the elementary level. Many could not speak a word of English. The teacher and students banded together. We did our best to communicate. Often another kid spoke the native language. The new kids would muddle through and the worst that happened was they had to repeat a grade. Not much stigma when you cannot speak English and within a year or so, they were near fluent and right there with everyone else. I believe this is the "Sink or Swim" method. It works, brilliantly.
2) A person's foolish choice done with known consequences.
3) Moot point. English is by history, culture, education, and commerce, the primary language. See #2.
4) Moot point. Countries like Switzerland, Belgium, and Canada are bi or multilingual because their native populations are such, not because they received a huge influx of immigrants. And as glamorous as it looks to us, it causes problems ranging from minor disharmony (Switzerland) to near secession (Canada in the 70s and 80s and maybe again someday; Belgium now).
5) Good point but what does it have to do with the topic? We are talking about newcomers learning in their native language rather than English. Our kids are not going to learn their language so they do not have to learn ours. The result would be that American kids would know 2 or more languages and the newcomers only 1. Surprised nobody ever notes that.
Not to say, American kids could not use better language instruction. Study whatever the Dutch do and copy it.
Conclusion: English is not going anywhere. Yes, the country is becoming ever-more Latino. But one way or another, they will stop speaking Spanish even at home. Do you know any old time Hispanic families in California that are still speaking it after being here for 300 years?
3) Moot point. English is by history, culture, education, and commerce, the primary language. See #2.
History, culture, education and commerce are dynamic. That means, just because that's the way it is now, does NOT mean that's the way it must be 20 years from now. All of those countries went through periods of negotiation in which one language may have dominated and concessions were made for a large minority group. At one point in Belgium, Flemish was the language of art/culture/education. Now it's French. Who knows what it will be later.
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4) Moot point. Countries like Switzerland, Belgium, and Canada are bi or multilingual because their native populations are such, not because they received a huge influx of immigrants. And as glamorous as it looks to us, it causes problems ranging from minor disharmony (Switzerland) to near secession (Canada in the 70s and 80s and maybe again someday; Belgium now)..
How does one become native to America (the political construct) but through immigration? And now there IS a large population of American citizens who are native Spanish speakers in America-the children of Spanish-speaking immigrants. Many of the children in TESOL classes are American-born. Therefore, they have the same citizenship claims you do but can also advocate for their linguistic preferences-especially since they have a sizable supportive population, and that population is unlikely to dwindle. It's not like they're coming from half way around the world...
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5) Good point but what does it have to do with the topic? We are talking about newcomers learning in their native language rather than English. Our kids are not going to learn their language so they do not have to learn ours. The result would be that American kids would know 2 or more languages and the newcomers only 1. Surprised nobody ever notes that..
Let's be honest. You are far more likely to find a bilingual Latino American than you are to find large populations of bilingual people in any other group. THAT is their advantage. While they do have those who only speak one language, most attempt to speak both. And for those who only know one language, their world is much smaller than everyone else's and likely will be for decades to come.
I agree, English is not going anywhere, at least, no time soon. As I said before the language of power is English and probably will be for a long time.
As a CA native and a person familiar with many many Chicanos, most do NOT stop speaking Spanish at home. The ones that do are:
1. White Latinos who intermarry with Anglo/non-hispanic Whites/non-latinos and want what they perceive to be the standard american lifestyle.
2. Upper middle class Latinos who do not want to be associated with the lower class-though even this is changing as there is economic opportunity in having the association.
My basic point is IF it is going to happen, it will happen. If it won't, it won't. No amount of complaining will stop it because the shift will be rooted in whatever economic/political opportunity exists for them. In Southern CA, being bilingual is not only an advantage, it's becoming a requirement in certain industries. Even mayoral politics.
History, culture, education and commerce are dynamic. That means, just because that's the way it is now, does NOT mean that's the way it must be 20 years from now. All of those countries went through periods of negotiation in which one language may have dominated and concessions were made for a large minority group. At one point in Belgium, Flemish was the language of art/culture/education. Now it's French. Who knows what it will be later.
How does one become native to America (the political construct) but through immigration? And now there IS a large population of American citizens who are native Spanish speakers in America-the children of Spanish-speaking immigrants. Many of the children in TESOL classes are American-born. Therefore, they have the same citizenship claims you do but can also advocate for their linguistic preferences-especially since they have a sizable supportive population, and that population is unlikely to dwindle. It's not like they're coming from half way around the world...
Let's be honest. You are far more likely to find a bilingual Latino American than you are to find large populations of bilingual people in any other group. THAT is their advantage. While they do have those who only speak one language, most attempt to speak both. And for those who only know one language, their world is much smaller than everyone else's and likely will be for decades to come.
I agree, English is not going anywhere, at least, no time soon. As I said before the language of power is English and probably will be for a long time.
As a CA native and a person familiar with many many Chicanos, most do NOT stop speaking Spanish at home. The ones that do are:
1. White Latinos who intermarry with Anglo/non-hispanic Whites/non-latinos and want what they perceive to be the standard american lifestyle.
2. Upper middle class Latinos who do not want to be associated with the lower class-though even this is changing as there is economic opportunity in having the association.
My basic point is IF it is going to happen, it will happen. If it won't, it won't. No amount of complaining will stop it because the shift will be rooted in whatever economic/political opportunity exists for them. In Southern CA, being bilingual is not only an advantage, it's becoming a requirement in certain industries. Even mayoral politics.
Thank you for proving my point that Americans are incapable of discussing this rationally.
Yes, people become native to the US via immigration. But the previous waves of immigrants, German, Swedish, Finnish, Arab, etc, did not change the nation's primary language. You presently see a lot of new arrivals and their children. But its doubtful the 3rd generation will speak Spanish. It will vanish by the 4th. Always does.
Comparing the US to Switzerland or Belgium is inane. Switzerland is a country made up of 3 ethnic groups (German, French, Italian) who speak 4 languages (Swiss-German, French, Italian or Romansch). None of them came there via immigration- they are all indigenous. Nobody in America is indigenous save for Native Americans and I will bet it all that you ain't gonna learn Cherokee, Navajo, or Sioux.
As for Belgium, the country is biethnic/bilingual, split between Flemings (Flemish speakers) and Walloons (French speakers) with a small German minority. Again, all are indigenous. Comparing them to Latinos is just wrong.
Your point that this could all change? Well, yea. Under the "Anything is possible" umbrella, sure. But there is no sign of that coming and we all have to deal with the here and now.
And that means ENGLISH. What makes this debate all the more stupid is that folks would like to diminish the role of English well after it has, for all intents and purposes, become the dominant global language.
Why the hell would anyone in the USA think not learning it was a good idea?
Thank you for proving my point that Americans are incapable of discussing this rationally.
Yes, people become native to the US via immigration. But the previous waves of immigrants, German, Swedish, Finnish, Arab, etc, did not change the nation's primary language. You presently see a lot of new arrivals and their children. But its doubtful the 3rd generation will speak Spanish. It will vanish by the 4th. Always does.
Comparing the US to Switzerland or Belgium is inane. Switzerland is a country made up of 3 ethnic groups (German, French, Italian) who speak 4 languages (Swiss-German, French, Italian or Romansch). None of them came there via immigration- they are all indigenous. Nobody in America is indigenous save for Native Americans and I will bet it all that you ain't gonna learn Cherokee, Navajo, or Sioux.
As for Belgium, the country is biethnic/bilingual, split between Flemings (Flemish speakers) and Walloons (French speakers) with a small German minority. Again, all are indigenous. Comparing them to Latinos is just wrong.
Your point that this could all change? Well, yea. Under the "Anything is possible" umbrella, sure. But there is no sign of that coming and we all have to deal with the here and now.
And that means ENGLISH. What makes this debate all the more stupid is that folks would like to diminish the role of English well after it has, for all intents and purposes, become the dominant global language.
Why the hell would anyone in the USA think not learning it was a good idea?
I have to disagree with you on some points. There are Americans who are native to the birth of this country. Descendants of the revolutionary war & peoples who native flag is American.
If the scenario you describe is the case, none of he central & south American countries are native to theirs either.
Even Indians came from somewhere, they are not native either. This dispute can be endless.
So there are natives to the birth of this country, they are the ones who pave the way & set this country up for success. From colony to super power
I wish American-born, English speaking kids had more opportunity for foreign language immersion. The public schools have cut back and it will only limit them in the long run. There are jobs I don't qualify for because Spanish fluency is required so I am learning to speak it.
I have to disagree with you on some points. There are Americans who are native to the birth of this country. Descendants of the revolutionary war & peoples who native flag is American.
If the scenario you describe is the case, none of he central & south American countries are native to theirs either.
Even Indians came from somewhere, they are not native either. This dispute can be endless.
So there are natives to the birth of this country, they are the ones who pave the way & set this country up for success. From colony to super power
I myself have ancestors that predate the Revolution. Nonetheless, they are not indigenous. There were Indians there to greet them. Yes, those Indians came from somewhere else to, but it does not matter as we are not going to learn Cherokee.
People in Central & South America are mostly indigenous, sometimes descended from immigrants, and often a mix of both. Again, I do not see the relevance.
I wish American-born, English speaking kids had more opportunity for foreign language immersion. The public schools have cut back and it will only limit them in the long run. There are jobs I don't qualify for because Spanish fluency is required so I am learning to speak it.
Foreign language immersion means you go there. I studied German for years in high school, college, and on my own. It was when I went there that I took a quantum leap.
And its pricey for North Americans. Going to study French in France cost money. Its much easier for other Europeans to study other European languages as they are often a couple of hours away.
Spanish is the one exception as we are closer to Spanish speaking countries. And we have a lot of newcomers who speak it which means tv channels in Spanish, movies, and newspapers- all essential tools in immersion.
I just don't understand why do we have Bilingual schools in New York? If you are here you should speak English. Bilingual is not really bilingual after researching it. Its all in the students language. If you speak another language going to Bilingual school neither encourages & helps a person to Speak English. There is no incentive to learn it. And students are further behind.
100% Agree!-you should see how money is wasted in those bilingual programs: Spanish books and translating English language books into Spanish. I am a an immigrant and Spanish speaker-I went to school to learn English for two years before I came to the US. I would not have come here otherwise.
I don't think there's anything wrong in knowing/learning multiple languages. Some places in this world, you won't be able to live there (not by law) unless you know 3 or more different languages.
I am not sure of what you mean. Bilingual education in NYC public schools is not about learning languages, it is about accommodating new immigrants in their own language while they, hopefully, pick English. For this, they get teachers that are fluent in Spanish and Spanish books and receive the education mostly in Spanish but gradually switching to English. Unfortunately some parents leave their children in the programs even after they no longer needed it. Bilingual Education is very different from learning Spanish or French as a subject in school.
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