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Old 07-11-2007, 01:45 AM
 
433 posts, read 1,438,563 times
Reputation: 149

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hustla718 View Post
Yes and it needs to be stated again and again. Too many fools who don't know any better.

Black on Black crime is an epidemeic. It's self genocide. We are killing ourselves off. It ain't getting no better.



Another thing to factor in is incarceration rates. Look at how many youth have been arrested, spent time in prison. 2 out of 3 African American or Puerto Rican males will be arrested in NYC. It has become part of our culture. Reflected in our very own music even.



A lot of that dispute related violence is encouraged by the Hip Hop culture. I love Rap, but lets be real it encourages violence. It also would of helped if both Tyrone and Jose were not arrested at a young and and exposed to real hardened criminals. Or that they were doing finacially well. Or that generation after generation a male figure was either killed or spent most of their life locked up. Or that their mothers did not have them when they were 15-16 years old, unable to support them and no father figure for mother or child.

Maybe with better opportunities they would hesitate pulling the trigger. Or would not want to put themselves in the situation at all. Or not be in an enviornment where that is accepted at all.

Even if Jose had rare circumstances in the hood, for example never got locked up, had both parents and was doing somewhat okay financially the ghetto would still drag him down. Maybe Jose carried the gun because he was tired of getting jumped by the guys on the corner and getting seriously injured when he was coming home from school. It just happened he bumped Tyron by accident, a low life, and killed him. Now Jose's life is over.

What I'm sick of is the usual "The system/man holds me down" attitude. Is life hard? Sure. I grew up poor too. Many Europeans coming to America had ****. Absolute ****. Yet this stuff didn't go on.

I feel for the child that sells crack becuase he has to eat. Such is the tragedy of the brutal capitalist system we have chosen. Yet, with all the ways we try to remedy this brutality, it gets thrown back in our face as the homicide rate keeps rising. And then the kicker: "It's whitey's fault".

No. This is the story of a society where masculinity has gone out of control. When the likes of Charles Barrone and Al Sharpton frame your world view, it's hard to see hope in anything.

It's enough to make one wonder who we all are as a species. Where is the church/god in these communites?
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Old 07-11-2007, 01:55 AM
 
201 posts, read 1,211,743 times
Reputation: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by briarwood View Post
What I'm sick of is the usual "The system/man holds me down" attitude. Is life hard? Sure. I grew up poor too. Many Europeans coming to America had ****. Absolute ****. Yet this stuff didn't go on.

I feel for the child that sells crack becuase he has to eat. Such is the tragedy of the brutal capitalist system we have chosen. Yet, with all the ways we try to remedy this brutality, it gets thrown back in our face as the homicide rate keeps rising. And then the kicker: "It's whitey's fault".

No. This is the story of a society where masculinity has gone out of control. When the likes of Charles Barrone and Al Sharpton frame your world view, it's hard to see hope in anything.

It's enough to make one wonder who we all are as a species. Where is the church/god in these communites?
No where in this thread does it say it's Whiteys fault. I'm a Whitey.
This thread is more about generational poverty, and how those that do not experience it in this country are less likely to commit crime, be put in Jail, or killed on the streets. Europeans who came to America are like any other immigrant group. Most of them came in search of Hope and to prosper in a new land.
The people whose issues we are addressing LIVE in this "New Land" and have lived here for generations. They do not know what the US has to offer them. They are not here because they wanted to. They are here because that is where they were born. They were born into a violent slum and see no way out.
Poverty creates anger and desperation. Large heavily condensed areas of Poverty creates crowds of angry people who are desperate and will kill a fellow man in that desperation for survival, and this is how they survive, not by getting a family business, by selling drugs, ETC...
This is sociology 101.
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Old 07-11-2007, 03:36 AM
 
Location: Bronx, New York
3,537 posts, read 6,659,206 times
Reputation: 1460
I am a born and raised, approaching 40-year-old African-American New York City resident. I have seen this city change, and change in ways I would have never thought. I will say this.....

I will continue to rebut the position that every or most neighborhoods of color are to be avoided. I will also take the position that neighborhoods have a way of reforming itself. Of course, neighborhoods aren't perfect (none are), but to advise people to avoid certain neighborhoods adds to the segregation of this city (like it did in the past!).

I will also point out that some people are taking interest in neighborhoods that are percieved as high crime, not only as an investment, but as a place to live. There was a time where no one wanted to invest or live in these areas. Now, these areas are not only a hot investments, but people are living in them as well.

To date, no one on this forum has answered how Williamsburg, a neighborhood that was previosly to be avoided, is now the hip place to live, with million dollar condos and shops! No one on this forum has answered why new people in Williamsburg didn't give a damn about avoiding that neighborhood, and bought high-priced condos, anyway! And guess what? The neighborhood is now the place to be!

Park Slope was also a nabe to be avoided, with drugs and gangs running that spot for years. When I moved there in 1992 (was there for 15 years, until I recently moved out), I was on a block between 4 and 5 Avenue. Blocks between 4 and 5 Avenue were considered poorer, mostly Latino, and you got richer as you moved closer to Prospect Park. Now, every block in the Slope is the bomb!

I'll give you another point. Right now, there are buildings built along Myrtle Avenue, between Tompkins and Marcy Projects. And you know who lives in these buildings....mostly whites! And take a ride on G (that line services that area). It is a mostly white train, now! (I grew up in this neighborhood, and my place of worship is still there, so I know!).

I will say this: there are people who are NOT listening to the argument that certain places are to be avoided. OK, so the traditional white population in NYC is declining (Irish, Italians, etc). But there is another group of whites (I call them white collar--many work on Wall Street and want shorter commutes) that are NOT afraid of the hood! I have seen it!

As far as migration patterns, it is true that African American and Puerto Rican populations are declining. There are a host of factors that drive that. Crime may be one factor. Cost of living another. Slower pace. School system. Retirement to the south, the Poconos or Puerto Rico. Job opportunities in other areas. Also, consider that New York has always been a city of changing demographics. Groups come and leave after a certain amount of years/generations. I not only studied it, but I've seen it.

I will say and agree that New York is segregated not only by race, but by class. I do see the class disparities when that Lex Ave stops at 86th street every morning. So I'm not blind to that. But what one may says avoid, another man sees as an oppurtunity, like rich whites in Billyburg (did I say Billyburg?), or my friend's $160K condo in Harlem (20 years ago) now worth in the mills!

Now, with regard to Philly, has anyone every thought of the possibility that in addition to crime, many of the blue collar jobs that were in that city (such as manufacturing) are now gone? (Hmmm, didn't we go through that phase?).
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:13 AM
 
433 posts, read 1,438,563 times
Reputation: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by scatman View Post
I am a born and raised, approaching 40-year-old African-American New York City resident. I have seen this city change, and change in ways I would have never thought. I will say this.....

I will continue to rebut the position that every or most neighborhoods of color are to be avoided. I will also take the position that neighborhoods have a way of reforming itself. Of course, neighborhoods aren't perfect (none are), but to advise people to avoid certain neighborhoods adds to the segregation of this city (like it did in the past!).

I will also point out that some people are taking interest in neighborhoods that are percieved as high crime, not only as an investment, but as a place to live. There was a time where no one wanted to invest or live in these areas. Now, these areas are not only a hot investments, but people are living in them as well.

To date, no one on this forum has answered how Williamsburg, a neighborhood that was previosly to be avoided, is now the hip place to live, with million dollar condos and shops! No one on this forum has answered why new people in Williamsburg didn't give a damn about avoiding that neighborhood, and bought high-priced condos, anyway! And guess what? The neighborhood is now the place to be!

Park Slope was also a nabe to be avoided, with drugs and gangs running that spot for years. When I moved there in 1992 (was there for 15 years, until I recently moved out), I was on a block between 4 and 5 Avenue. Blocks between 4 and 5 Avenue were considered poorer, mostly Latino, and you got richer as you moved closer to Prospect Park. Now, every block in the Slope is the bomb!

I'll give you another point. Right now, there are buildings built along Myrtle Avenue, between Tompkins and Marcy Projects. And you know who lives in these buildings....mostly whites! And take a ride on G (that line services that area). It is a mostly white train, now! (I grew up in this neighborhood, and my place of worship is still there, so I know!).

I will say this: there are people who are NOT listening to the argument that certain places are to be avoided. OK, so the traditional white population in NYC is declining (Irish, Italians, etc). But there is another group of whites (I call them white collar--many work on Wall Street and want shorter commutes) that are NOT afraid of the hood! I have seen it!

As far as migration patterns, it is true that African American and Puerto Rican populations are declining. There are a host of factors that drive that. Crime may be one factor. Cost of living another. Slower pace. School system. Retirement to the south, the Poconos or Puerto Rico. Job opportunities in other areas. Also, consider that New York has always been a city of changing demographics. Groups come and leave after a certain amount of years/generations. I not only studied it, but I've seen it.

I will say and agree that New York is segregated not only by race, but by class. I do see the class disparities when that Lex Ave stops at 86th street every morning. So I'm not blind to that. But what one may says avoid, another man sees as an oppurtunity, like rich whites in Billyburg (did I say Billyburg?), or my friend's $160K condo in Harlem (20 years ago) now worth in the mills!

Now, with regard to Philly, has anyone every thought of the possibility that in addition to crime, many of the blue collar jobs that were in that city (such as manufacturing) are now gone? (Hmmm, didn't we go through that phase?).


NYC has treated African-Americans and PRicans like ****. Frankly, there are far more hospitiable places down south and out west. As Blacks and Latinos continue to rise in economic power and success, I foresee them leaving the city all together. Replaced by newer Asians, Wall st whites, South Americans and some Africans. I think we'll see a white majority by 2050.

I don't get why people think gentrification is so bad. This post is right on the ball, what NYC has become since the 80s this far better than what it's been.


And yes, I disagree with the posters who say whites can't live here and blacks can't live there. The fastest growing ethnic group in Bedford-Stuy is Whites!
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Old 07-11-2007, 06:56 AM
 
52 posts, read 205,023 times
Reputation: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by briarwood View Post
The fastest growing ethnic group in Bedford-Stuy is Whites!
Yes, but do they stay? Will they open up shops, send their kids to local schools, invest in the neighborhood? Or will they find they aren't really welcome, wind up becoming landlords, raising rents, have it go bust, and resort to section 8, thus insuring a thriving drug trade?

Most likely, and tell me honestly Briar, don't you see young white hipster chicks with the braids and noserings, probably taking a job as a new teacher or social worker? Or young libs thinking they are so "with it" that no one really pays attention to skin color in Bed Stuy? The G train is like something out of a bad required diversity course in a community college: if youre white, you're under 30 and either female or gay. Have you ever noticed the lack of white guys over the age of 25? Usually they are thin, wearing girls jeans, goa-tee... just poor exuses for men. Meanwhile, my black friends are trying to hold their family together with dignity and respect, holding off the street from taking thier sons and daughters, encouraging education, thrift and the importance of at least acknowledging God... And you have these yuppy/hipster self-righteous smug do-gooders...

Sorry. It's hot and my AC is bad.
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Old 07-11-2007, 08:21 AM
 
433 posts, read 1,438,563 times
Reputation: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackson99 View Post
Yes, but do they stay? Will they open up shops, send their kids to local schools, invest in the neighborhood? Or will they find they aren't really welcome, wind up becoming landlords, raising rents, have it go bust, and resort to section 8, thus insuring a thriving drug trade?

Most likely, and tell me honestly Briar, don't you see young white hipster chicks with the braids and noserings, probably taking a job as a new teacher or social worker? Or young libs thinking they are so "with it" that no one really pays attention to skin color in Bed Stuy? The G train is like something out of a bad required diversity course in a community college: if youre white, you're under 30 and either female or gay. Have you ever noticed the lack of white guys over the age of 25? Usually they are thin, wearing girls jeans, goa-tee... just poor exuses for men. Meanwhile, my black friends are trying to hold their family together with dignity and respect, holding off the street from taking thier sons and daughters, encouraging education, thrift and the importance of at least acknowledging God... And you have these yuppy/hipster self-righteous smug do-gooders...

Sorry. It's hot and my AC is bad.
Racist stereotyping 101 right here.

What if they do? Maybe you'll see Italian bakeries and British clothing shops. Suddenly, white children outnumber black children on the playground. The A train has blondes in Armani suits going to work. The brownstone blocks become scenes straight out of Park Slope.


Would the "community" embrace this? Of course not. Wrapped in their hatred of anything white and successful (nevermind both), hinding behind the false banner of "diversity" and "affordable housing", they'll proceed to bash, mug, threaten or otherwise block any attempt at racial transition.

Meanwhile, should any white community attempt the same, Al Shaprton and friends will start their little intafada (Crown Heights anyone?) episodes.


Intergrating neighborhoods means intergrating neighborhoods. Not simply "replace whites with people of color", as is the contempary definition.
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Old 07-11-2007, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
1,526 posts, read 5,260,558 times
Reputation: 299
My friend was looking for an affordable coop and contacted a broker in Brooklyn--forgot the area, but apparently the real estate developers were systematically running out the blacks in the area who had rented there. The bad vibes were palpable. I have to say if I were black and saw the yuppies descending on my hood and I was threatened with eviction, I'd be a little disgruntled too.

The other thing I predict is that these same developers will in turn run out the new occupants--folks who can somehow handle the relatively low asking prices--by doubling the maintenance or something akin to it down the line. The real estate biz is cutthroat and ruthless, esp in NYC, and most parts of Brooklyn are destined to be akin to Manhattan in price.

By contrast, I just bought a coop in the Bronx where the residents are predominantly middle class blacks. Very friendly, decent people--along with some elderly folks. But I'm looking to live here for the long term, not invest and make a killing later (and I'm pretty sure that the prices will continue to go up--what cost 100K now cost about 60K or less about 8 years ago, and prices are climbing up slowly). But the tipping point for the Bronx, in terms of major gentrification, is probably a ways away.
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Old 07-11-2007, 01:22 PM
 
1,529 posts, read 2,282,531 times
Reputation: -80
Quote:
Originally Posted by scatman View Post
I am a born and raised, approaching 40-year-old African-American New York City resident. I have seen this city change, and change in ways I would have never thought. I will say this.....

I will continue to rebut the position that every or most neighborhoods of color are to be avoided. I will also take the position that neighborhoods have a way of reforming itself. Of course, neighborhoods aren't perfect (none are), but to advise people to avoid certain neighborhoods adds to the segregation of this city (like it did in the past!).

I will also point out that some people are taking interest in neighborhoods that are percieved as high crime, not only as an investment, but as a place to live. There was a time where no one wanted to invest or live in these areas. Now, these areas are not only a hot investments, but people are living in them as well.

To date, no one on this forum has answered how Williamsburg, a neighborhood that was previosly to be avoided, is now the hip place to live, with million dollar condos and shops! No one on this forum has answered why new people in Williamsburg didn't give a damn about avoiding that neighborhood, and bought high-priced condos, anyway! And guess what? The neighborhood is now the place to be!

Park Slope was also a nabe to be avoided, with drugs and gangs running that spot for years. When I moved there in 1992 (was there for 15 years, until I recently moved out), I was on a block between 4 and 5 Avenue. Blocks between 4 and 5 Avenue were considered poorer, mostly Latino, and you got richer as you moved closer to Prospect Park. Now, every block in the Slope is the bomb!

I'll give you another point. Right now, there are buildings built along Myrtle Avenue, between Tompkins and Marcy Projects. And you know who lives in these buildings....mostly whites! And take a ride on G (that line services that area). It is a mostly white train, now! (I grew up in this neighborhood, and my place of worship is still there, so I know!).

I will say this: there are people who are NOT listening to the argument that certain places are to be avoided. OK, so the traditional white population in NYC is declining (Irish, Italians, etc). But there is another group of whites (I call them white collar--many work on Wall Street and want shorter commutes) that are NOT afraid of the hood! I have seen it!

As far as migration patterns, it is true that African American and Puerto Rican populations are declining. There are a host of factors that drive that. Crime may be one factor. Cost of living another. Slower pace. School system. Retirement to the south, the Poconos or Puerto Rico. Job opportunities in other areas. Also, consider that New York has always been a city of changing demographics. Groups come and leave after a certain amount of years/generations. I not only studied it, but I've seen it.

I will say and agree that New York is segregated not only by race, but by class. I do see the class disparities when that Lex Ave stops at 86th street every morning. So I'm not blind to that. But what one may says avoid, another man sees as an oppurtunity, like rich whites in Billyburg (did I say Billyburg?), or my friend's $160K condo in Harlem (20 years ago) now worth in the mills!

Now, with regard to Philly, has anyone every thought of the possibility that in addition to crime, many of the blue collar jobs that were in that city (such as manufacturing) are now gone? (Hmmm, didn't we go through that phase?).
You don't get it.

My statement is the crime rates among Blacks and Puerto Ricans is still at an unacceptable level. Have not changed much even compared to the crack area. If anything it is now slowly getting worse. Life is very different for a young African American male in Bed-stuy versus a White college grad who just moved into a brownstone in the same area.

As for Williamsbridge, that used to be a poor WHITE neighborhood.

As for Harlem, again as I always say. While you pay 160K for a condo, down the block the drug dealers and paying a couple hundred per month to live in the same neighborhood. Nothing more then getting ripped off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by briarwood View Post
NYC has treated African-Americans and PRicans like ****. Frankly, there are far more hospitiable places down south and out west. As Blacks and Latinos continue to rise in economic power and success, I foresee them leaving the city all together. Replaced by newer Asians, Wall st whites, South Americans and some Africans. I think we'll see a white majority by 2050.

I don't get why people think gentrification is so bad. This post is right on the ball, what NYC has become since the 80s this far better than what it's been.


And yes, I disagree with the posters who say whites can't live here and blacks can't live there. The fastest growing ethnic group in Bedford-Stuy is Whites!
Gentrification is not a good thing for all. Yes it is great for the wealthy. However things do not change for the poor. In fact they are just shifted out of their neighborhood. Not every poor person is a criminal either. The same problems exist for them.

And no way are Whites the largest growing group in Bed-stuy. Bed-stuy is a growing Black community. More Blacks are moving there. Not African Americans but West Indians and immigrant Africans. Whites are still exiting the city.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackson99 View Post
Yes, but do they stay? Will they open up shops, send their kids to local schools, invest in the neighborhood? Or will they find they aren't really welcome, wind up becoming landlords, raising rents, have it go bust, and resort to section 8, thus insuring a thriving drug trade?

Most likely, and tell me honestly Briar, don't you see young white hipster chicks with the braids and noserings, probably taking a job as a new teacher or social worker? Or young libs thinking they are so "with it" that no one really pays attention to skin color in Bed Stuy? The G train is like something out of a bad required diversity course in a community college: if youre white, you're under 30 and either female or gay. Have you ever noticed the lack of white guys over the age of 25? Usually they are thin, wearing girls jeans, goa-tee... just poor exuses for men. Meanwhile, my black friends are trying to hold their family together with dignity and respect, holding off the street from taking thier sons and daughters, encouraging education, thrift and the importance of at least acknowledging God... And you have these yuppy/hipster self-righteous smug do-gooders...

Sorry. It's hot and my AC is bad.
Your right they don't stay. Once they have families they leave. A place like Bed-stuy is no neighborhood for a kid. They don't associate with the neighborhood either, they post on the internet hoping for more to come and push out the locals using economics. Once they get to New York they realize now they will have to work a considerable amount of time per week. On their free time, they don't hang out on a Bed-stuy corner like the locals. They go downtown to see art galleries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by briarwood View Post
Racist stereotyping 101 right here.

What if they do? Maybe you'll see Italian bakeries and British clothing shops. Suddenly, white children outnumber black children on the playground. The A train has blondes in Armani suits going to work. The brownstone blocks become scenes straight out of Park Slope.


Would the "community" embrace this? Of course not. Wrapped in their hatred of anything white and successful (nevermind both), hinding behind the false banner of "diversity" and "affordable housing", they'll proceed to bash, mug, threaten or otherwise block any attempt at racial transition.

Meanwhile, should any white community attempt the same, Al Shaprton and friends will start their little intafada (Crown Heights anyone?) episodes.


Intergrating neighborhoods means intergrating neighborhoods. Not simply "replace whites with people of color", as is the contempary definition.
Stereotyping? He's right, every White college student I see in bad neighborhoods look the way he describes (tight cloths, wierd styles) the same way every kid in Harlem wears White tees and baggy jeans. I also see more females then men. These are college students (or recent grads), just recently I heard of the "emo" culture. I guess a lot of these guys are into that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvira Black View Post
My friend was looking for an affordable coop and contacted a broker in Brooklyn--forgot the area, but apparently the real estate developers were systematically running out the blacks in the area who had rented there. The bad vibes were palpable. I have to say if I were black and saw the yuppies descending on my hood and I was threatened with eviction, I'd be a little disgruntled too.

The other thing I predict is that these same developers will in turn run out the new occupants--folks who can somehow handle the relatively low asking prices--by doubling the maintenance or something akin to it down the line. The real estate biz is cutthroat and ruthless, esp in NYC, and most parts of Brooklyn are destined to be akin to Manhattan in price.

By contrast, I just bought a coop in the Bronx where the residents are predominantly middle class blacks. Very friendly, decent people--along with some elderly folks. But I'm looking to live here for the long term, not invest and make a killing later (and I'm pretty sure that the prices will continue to go up--what cost 100K now cost about 60K or less about 8 years ago, and prices are climbing up slowly). But the tipping point for the Bronx, in terms of major gentrification, is probably a ways away.
"apparently the real estate developers were systematically running out the blacks in the area who had rented there."

The local Blacks just can't afford it. Neither do they want to live among the yuppies. Why pay market rate for Bed-stuy when you can get section 8 or live in the PJ's and deal with the same ****. The streets are all shared once you leave the building.

As usual some people just don't get it.

Last edited by Hustla718; 07-11-2007 at 01:38 PM..
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Old 07-11-2007, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
1,526 posts, read 5,260,558 times
Reputation: 299
Hustla, I guess what I'm saying is that in areas in rapid real estate "transitiion," some people are going to have a bit more trouble moving in without a hassle than in other areas. If people are being displaced in large numbers, there's going to be hostility toward the newcomers who are forcing them out, intentionally or not.
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:30 AM
 
Location: Orlando Florida
1,352 posts, read 5,929,445 times
Reputation: 417
someones temper and character is what makes that person pull the trigger....not being poor..plenty of poor people including me growing up.....never felt the need to kill someone just to eat or because someone stepped on my shoes and i didnt like it......its all about pier pressure and parents that dont instill character into thier children and when that happens...the only place to learn right or wrong is from music or whatever else society lets kids see nowadays....and that is thier parental guidance which is violence and telling kids that you "have" to sell drugs to eat....
I disagree with hustla on other issues but i agree with his post here.
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