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art has everything to do with this. artist come into the neighborhood, hipsters/yuppies follow, new businesses come in. Next thing you know, prices rise, natives leave, and ironicly, so do the artist.
ok, so maybe artsy fartsy people are the early adopters in gentrification. but who cares when the artists go (from the perspective of losing the "art" not the people. im sure a natural response would be "who cares if x people go).
That first paragraph could easily happen with revitalization. Except maybe big business. I'm still mulling that over, since I'm more of a small business supporter. I'm not blaming it sorely on the rich, just mainly. In case you didn't know, rich girls get pregnant too. Its just poor girls are viewed more on a lower view. Believe it or not, alot of the problems we face today are largely influnced from the past. They don't just happen. Capitalism is a really bad system as far as I'm concerned. Mixing in some nice benefits isn't gonna change that. I know people who work really hard and still can't make it.
That first paragraph could easily happen with revitalization. Except maybe big business. I'm still mulling that over, since I'm more of a small business supporter. I'm not blaming it sorely on the rich, just mainly. In case you didn't know, rich girls get pregnant too. Its just poor girls are viewed more on a lower view. Believe it or not, alot of the problems we face today are largely influnced from the past. They don't just happen. Capitalism is a really bad system as far as I'm concerned. Mixing in some nice benefits isn't gonna change that. I know people who work really hard and still can't make it.
Wealthy people are unlikely to become pregnant as teens when compared to low income people. From abortions to proper parenting and on average higher intelligence due to better schooling (they better understand the economic burden).
The USA is not a pure capitalistic economic system. We have social aspects. The problem is there will always be people who are good for nothing. Survival of the fittest. If you have an alternative system please enlighten me.
Working hard and making money the right way are two things. I can break my back doing construction all day and not make a dime, or I can go to college and study a high paying in demand career. The choice is yours.
Like hell it is!!! America one of the purest capitalist countries in the world. And you really believe rich kids don't get pregnant? maybe not as often as poor ones, but it is a high rate. You really don't know what your talking about. You act like colleges are actually searching for people, and you just walk in, forgetting everything else. Have you forgotten what I said, these things don't just happen? Wealth is passed down through the generations, and guess what? Alot of people on the bottom haven't got much of a chance. A better system? Socialism.
Public school, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Public Housing, these are all socialist systems. There was a time when there was no public school and only the wealthy were educated (and it kept them wealthy).
I never once said wealthy children do not get pregnant, I said they do so at much lower rates. I don't see teenage girls pushing strollers out of luxury Co-ops on the Upper East Side, MN the way I do from low income public housing in Brownsville, BK.
Wealth does often get passed across generations, it is easier to sustain than to come from nothing. However like I said getting pregnant as a teenager will limit your job selection because your child has needs, your income again because your child has needs. Having a criminal conviction will limit your job opportunities. A single parent household is more likely to be in poverty, a child is more likely to face neglect. High poverty neighborhoods become a cycle of struggle for the residents. It takes a dedicated individual to make it out of poverty, there are sometimes barriers beyond ones control. However the help is available. Unfortunately not everyone is up to par to take advantage, economic natural selection.
Public school, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Public Housing, these are all socialist systems. There was a time when there was no public school and only the wealthy were educated (and it kept them wealthy).
I never once said wealthy children do not get pregnant, I said they do so at much lower rates. I don't see teenage girls pushing strollers out of luxury Co-ops on the Upper East Side, MN the way I do from low income public housing in Brownsville, BK.
Wealth does often get passed across generations, it is easier to sustain than to come from nothing. However like I said getting pregnant as a teenager will limit your job selection because your child has needs, your income again because your child has needs. Having a criminal conviction will limit your job opportunities. A single parent household is more likely to be in poverty, a child is more likely to face neglect. High poverty neighborhoods become a cycle of struggle for the residents. It takes a dedicated individual to make it out of poverty, there are sometimes barriers beyond ones control. However the help is available. Unfortunately not everyone is up to par to take advantage, economic natural selection.
I think maybe we veered off course with this teen pregnancy thing. I think what drives people crazy is not about rich people being in New York, there have always been rich people here. I think whats touching a nerve is the way they are prioritized in the zoning and planning aspect of things. The very poor will remain in the city, but working middle class people will not. And yes the definition of middle class has changed with the rising cost of living, now someone making $100k+ is considered middle class. What bothers many people is not just a person of wealth moving into a neighborhood but the fact that other enterprising people see a demographic change and thusly push for out of scale "luxury" condos to be built. Landlords raise their rents to the point local shops cannot operate without raising the price of their goods to unaffordable prices. The decisions made in many areas causes many neighborhoods to do a great disservice to the majority of the people living within them while accomodating only a few.
I'm happy NY has changed since the early 90's, but the lower crime rate is the high water mark for that change. After that and especially after 9-11, I'm seeing an eroded traditional middle class, a poor educational system and an increasingly generic NYC as original places of interest dissappear and are replaced by big box stores and another Bank of America branch. And people will say "well the middle class all over America is dissappearing." But no where have I seen the standard of living for the middle class change so drastically, within a short period of time as I have in NYC. In fact one of NYC's exports are its middle class to various parts of the country, people who wanted to stay, many of them with bachelor's degrees, but could not afford it. If the trends continue and as New York becomes more generic, people will begin to ask why am I paying $2,000 for a one or two bedroom to live next to a starbucks or Dunkin Donuts, didn't they have that where I come from?
I like change but it needs to take a more balanced approach, you can't please everyone but the more benefactors of the change there are the better off the city is. It is foolhardy to think what has gone on in the last decade has been for the greater good.
As for diversity, NYC has been strictly segragated in many ways (more so than the vast majority of the USA) for some time, but that has been changing slowly.
Talking like this I have a hard time believing you are serious. The reason new york had such nice cultural communities was exactly because of segregation, when neighborhoods become mixed, they lose the sense of cultural community, this they might be "Diverse" racially, but not culturally, because then it just becomes another manhattan shopping mall.
Talking like this I have a hard time believing you are serious. The reason new york had such nice cultural communities was exactly because of segregation, when neighborhoods become mixed, they lose the sense of cultural community, this they might be "Diverse" racially, but not culturally, because then it just becomes another manhattan shopping mall.
segregation in NY is different from other places. Many neighborhoods are the way they are so people from the same backgrounds can provide a network for each other and get goods from where ever it is they're from. Also as an older city its not as easy to intergrate already defined boundaries as it is in cities where most housing is 20 years old, thats why NY usually tops the list, not because its a "racist" city. Not to say I'm against diversity, just explaining the method to the madness.
segregation in NY is different from other places. Many neighborhoods are the way they are so people from the same backgrounds can provide a network for each other and get goods from where ever it is they're from. Also as an older city its not as easy to intergrate already defined boundaries as it is in cities where most housing is 20 years old, thats why NY usually tops the list, not because its a "racist" city. Not to say I'm against diversity, just explaining the method to the madness.
Right well the segregation is not because of some state enforced boundries, but simply because people of a certain ethnic group prefer to live with thier own kind. "Diversity" or a "Diverse" area, is not favorable to this, these areas either eventually become dominated by one group, or they become gentrified and a bunch of transplants who are working professionals move in as the case was in harlem.
Im Italian, and my family is from brooklyn and staten island, and currently I live in bensonhurst, which has become "Diverse" there are all kinds of immigrants here now many chinese and russians, but to the original italian residence it has lost a good sense of its community feeling as a result, and I am looking to move out of here to a place that has more people of a similar background.
Its not because I hate these people, more because I have my own culture and want to be with others who share it, if I was an NYU student from some place outside New York I might be in awe of such "Diversity" but I am not.
Gentrification is a tool used by the government and political leaders to help "rejuvenate and diversify" neighborhoods. It brings in well-to-do/wealthy, educated people (the majority of this population in America happens to be white people) and brings in improved amenities, improved quality-of-life, and fancy new retailers, restaurants, ect. The thing is, we don't have enough information on the side-effects of gentrification. All the government knows is that it attracts wealthy people and money, so they're all for it. The intricacies and profundity of the different frameworks in neighborhoods is creating an uncertain situation for the futures of these neighborhoods because of gentrification. It has been proven in recent scholarly articles that gentrification does not improve diversity, but in fact, it decreases diversity. Think about it, an increase of wealthy, educated people into a working-class area will create more diversity, or increased separation between the original class that exists in the area? Race is no longer the "thing" in America, it's CLASS. Class is what separates people. Just like what GeorgeSI was saying, it's their cultural differences, age, ect. i.e. class.
Everyone is completely right when you talk about the original natives creating the soul, flavor, authenticity, whatever about the neighborhood. Traditions, sub-cultures, and many other complicated things that humans creates is all a part of being a human. It is really beautiful in a sense. It is what attracts these newcomers to our beautiful city. HOWEVER, when these careless, rich, newcomers come into the neighborhood they want to replace it with blandness and unnatural, popular media fads that will die out by next year. The 21st century and this gentrification is unlike anything else in the past changes because 1. it has never happened at the speed it is happening now 2. some people (not all but a significant population, ESPECIALLY in Manhattan) do not care at all for what was there before. All they care about is making money, ignoring what brought them there in the first place.
The making money factor comes from a bigger factor. Our country has become increasingly more focused on money during the end of the 20th and start of the 21st century. Specifically, the financial center aspect of it. And guess what? NYC is the smack dab in the middle of that in America. I guess it's because we want to remain at the top and many other countries would like to slit our throats the first chance they get, so we're forced to remain economically aggressive. So, you see, it has A TON more to do with what is being discussed here. I'm no Einstein, but I am giving you just the tip of the billyberg.
CaptainNJ, your ignorance is baffling. I don't want to further insult you on account of you may have a serious case of DUHHHHHLLLNEHNEHNEH (drool and slobber pour all over your sleeve and pants). However, I will enlighten you because I am a genuine person and native new yawker. ART is a major part of this city. If you get rid of it, you are getting rid of tourist attractions, residents, creativity, the list goes on. Things that generate revenue for the city and provide further economic stability. Not only that, it's what brings the majority of tourists, residents, ect. here in the first place. This is an artistic city as well as financial capital. However, these days, it really seems to be loosing a lot of its creativity because the financial center is too greedy and is a big, fat meany-head. I hope I explained it in words that you may be able to comprehend at your level of intelligence, little of it as there may be. Art is also something NJ lacks in every sense of the word, which is why NY is that much better.
Continuing on the topic of newcomers coming in replacing the old ones, leaving some old ones, ect. Yes, some people don't have any care in the world for what was there in the beginning (either they are the generation that followed what was there before, artists, hipsters, ect. or they simply could care less) and could therefore be very terrible for the future of the neighborhood. Who knows, if Harlem keeps gentrifying, maybe it will lose all its flavor, and people will start abandoning it AGAIN. Who knows? That's the dangerous thing about gentrification. WE ARE ALL UNSURE! Yet, the government still encourages it and continues to use it as a tool without further research into it. Unless we all start marching on Washington about gentrification, I doubt anything will be done. It is human nature to destroy ourselves I suppose. The political leaders in control will always have their way. Since they are using gentrification as the only means of revitalization, maybe gentrification will be our city's untimely doing. The economy is still Moderator cut: Language Escape From New York Part 2 everyone!!
Last edited by bmwguydc; 01-04-2011 at 09:14 PM..
Reason: Language
Gentrification is a tool used by the government and political leaders to help "rejuvenate and diversify" neighborhoods. It brings in well-to-do/wealthy, educated people (the majority of this population in America happens to be white people) and brings in improved amenities, improved quality-of-life, and fancy new retailers, restaurants, ect. The thing is, we don't have enough information on the side-effects of gentrification. All the government knows is that it attracts wealthy people and money, so they're all for it. The intricacies and profundity of the different frameworks in neighborhoods is creating an uncertain situation for the futures of these neighborhoods because of gentrification. It has been proven in recent scholarly articles that gentrification does not improve diversity, but in fact, it decreases diversity. Think about it, an increase of wealthy, educated people into a working-class area will create more diversity, or increased separation between the original class that exists in the area? Race is no longer the "thing" in America, it's CLASS. Class is what separates people. Just like what GeorgeSI was saying, it's their cultural differences, age, ect. i.e. class.
Looks more diverse to me. More income, economic, ethnic, ancestral and racial diversity in a lot of areas. Look at Bed-Stuy, once almost entirely African American or Afro-Carib/Latin, a lot more diversity now. There is enough rent controlled property in NYC to ensure a good % of these people stay at least for the time being.
Quote:
A lot of gentrification is occurring in neighborhoods that were traditionally of one or a few ancestry or ethnic group.
Everyone is completely right when you talk about the original natives creating the soul, flavor, authenticity, whatever about the neighborhood. Traditions, sub-cultures, and many other complicated things that humans creates is all a part of being a human. It is really beautiful in a sense. It is what attracts these newcomers to our beautiful city. HOWEVER, when these careless, rich, newcomers come into the neighborhood they want to replace it with blandness and unnatural, popular media fads that will die out by next year. The 21st century and this gentrification is unlike anything else in the past changes because 1. it has never happened at the speed it is happening now 2. some people (not all but a significant population, ESPECIALLY in Manhattan) do not care at all for what was there before. All they care about is making money, ignoring what brought them there in the first place.
The making money factor comes from a bigger factor. Our country has become increasingly more focused on money during the end of the 20th and start of the 21st century. Specifically, the financial center aspect of it. And guess what? NYC is the smack dab in the middle of that in America. I guess it's because we want to remain at the top and many other countries would like to slit our throats the first chance they get, so we're forced to remain economically aggressive. So, you see, it has A TON more to do with what is being discussed here. I'm no Einstein, but I am giving you just the tip of the billyberg.
Careless newcomers, the new comers are doing great things for the city. Recently there was a closed street parade in Williamsburg. Sponsored by "newcomers". The Prospect Park bike lanes, saved by "newcomers". It's the natives doing nothing, so infatuated with their own lives. Complaining and not realizing what they have, trust me I was there.
The world moves faster now, changes will occur at a faster pace. It's still natural due to our economic system.
Quote:
Continuing on the topic of newcomers coming in replacing the old ones, leaving some old ones, ect. Yes, some people don't have any care in the world for what was there in the beginning (either they are the generation that followed what was there before, artists, hipsters, ect. or they simply could care less) and could therefore be very terrible for the future of the neighborhood. Who knows, if Harlem keeps gentrifying, maybe it will lose all its flavor, and people will start abandoning it AGAIN. Who knows? That's the dangerous thing about gentrification. WE ARE ALL UNSURE! Yet, the government still encourages it and continues to use it as a tool without further research into it. Unless we all start marching on Washington about gentrification, I doubt anything will be done. It is human nature to destroy ourselves I suppose. The political leaders in control will always have their way. Since they are using gentrification as the only means of revitalization, maybe gentrification will be our city's untimely doing. The economy is still Moderator cut: Language Escape From New York Part 2 everyone!!
New comers make NYC. A few generations ago the demographics were completely different. Embrace it. The changes in store for NYC are amazing.
Harlem had flavor and lost it, how? It's still largely African American and crime and poverty is still an issue. It's going to always be largely African American as long as all those rent controlled units are there. Unless all those people defeat the cycle of poverty which I highly doubt will happen. The primary draws to Harlem are an African American community and a high density urban environment.
Last edited by bmwguydc; 01-04-2011 at 09:15 PM..
Reason: Edited quoted text
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