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It seems that quite often the topic about the high cost of living in NYC comes up. Some wanting to move here and trying to figure out if they can afford it. Others who already live here and complain about the high cost of living.
Just to add some dimension to this thread I will mention that over 8 million people live in the 5 boroughs of NYC with over 11 million living around other areas of NY state outside the 5 boroughs. This leaves an entire area of the state undeveloped.
The question is: How many New Yorkers would move to upstate NY if it were developed? Do you think that development of the upstate NY region would make it a more attractive place to live and put an end to the high cost of living in the 5 boroughs?
By developed I mean:
Instead of companies locating their offices in Manhattan they could place those offices in upstate NY. Providing jobs in that region that would make it an attractive place to live and where people would not need to worry about long commutes into the 5 boroughs everyday for work.
Affordable real estate development targeting the middle class.
Looking for ideas and solutions to the current overcrowding, high cost of living and decisions that many are making to flee NYC for living in other states.
Last edited by NewYorkBorn; 06-26-2011 at 09:08 AM..
A double no.
No,I would not move upstate for any reason and also no,I don't believe the development of upstate would cause the cost of living in NYC to go down.
I don't think that developing upstate NY would lower the COL for NYC because most people and companies do not want to live there. That is unfortunate. Most people in America when they think of New York state, NYC will always be in the forefront of their mind and it seems impossible to change that.
I think a way to lower the COL in NYC is to allow or if neighboring suburban counties like Nassau county or parts of NJ past Jersey City developed there more high density development along the likes to micro-Manhattans, and they had new maglev trains in the middle of them to travel into Manhattan much faster and more cost efficiently than they do now to connect the new satellite cities. Or even greatly develop Staten Island into another sorta mini-Manhattan and greatly expand transit between Manhattan and the new Manhattanized Staten Island there. It would potentially lower the COL because there'd be more housing units to fulfill the demand yet it won't demolish entire urban neighborhoods to fulfill housing.
The problem with that though is that the people of Nassau or New Jersey or Staten Island will greatly resist neighborhood change and understandably so.
Or would more building actually cause the COL to increase even higher because demand can never be completely fulfilled ever? Could building more units induce more demand to live in NYC or it's pseudo-satelitte cities?
I don't think that developing upstate NY would lower the COL for NYC because most people and companies do not want to live there. That is unfortunate. Most people in America when they think of New York state, NYC will always be in the forefront of their mind and it seems impossible to change that.
I think a way to lower the COL in NYC is to allow or if neighboring suburban counties like Nassau county or parts of NJ past Jersey City developed there more high density development along the likes to micro-Manhattans, and they had new maglev trains in the middle of them to travel into Manhattan much faster and more cost efficiently than they do now to connect the new satellite cities. Or even greatly develop Staten Island into another sorta mini-Manhattan and greatly expand transit between Manhattan and the new Manhattanized Staten Island there. It would potentially lower the COL because there'd be more housing units to fulfill the demand yet it won't demolish entire urban neighborhoods to fulfill housing.
The problem with that though is that the people of Nassau or New Jersey or Staten Island will greatly resist neighborhood change and understandably so.
Or would more building actually cause the COL to increase even higher because demand can never be completely fulfilled ever? Could building more units induce more demand to live in NYC or it's pseudo-satelitte cities?
You have made some good points. However I don't see the need to fight with residents of New Jersey or Nassau county when we have so much untapped potential in upstate NY that could provide housing for the masses as well as jobs. When you say that most companies do not want to be in upstate NY.....if there are tax incentives put in place where they benefit from a much lower tax, would that not be enough incentive to get companies to locate there instead of Manhattan? You are right though....changing peoples hang ups about living in upstate NY would be a tough one. As you said unfortunately whenever the word New York is mentioned the first thing people envision is NYC.....they tend to forget that there is an entire state of NY.
Where companies go....people will go because there will be jobs.
To lower the COL in NYC you have to either increase supply or decrease demand. Since there's really no way to do the former without turning NYC into Tokyo 2.0...the latter option will only be successful if cities upstate can somehow create jobs at a faster rate than NYC or at the very least a competitive rate. I think as this recession has shown, people are more than willing to make sacrifices in the name of stable employment. Look at all the threads folks make about wanting to move to NYC who are typically from high-unemployment states. I may be giving them too much credit, but if they can be somehow convinced that they will have a much better life in a city like Albany or Kingston which are only 2-3 hours away from NYC. Then if they are smart...they could take the alternative thus lowering demand to relocate to NYC...well at least in theory.
No because:
1. near upstate, basically places you can get to on a daily commute using Metro North or buses are already feeders for NYC.
2. Underdeveloped NY State is all the way up in the north, a solid 8 hours away in Buffalo, or in western New York. Needless to say, what happens up there and what happens in NYC aren't related in any particular way.
3. Properties in metro area NY already expensive, with single houses in places like Ulster County heading into the million dollar price range, and they don't even have a direct connection to Metro North. More demand will just raise the prices further. Given that price is already a great deterrent in NYC real estate, I doubt average people will be making the trek to the greater metro area.
4. Cars and gas are an expense that most NYers do without. Even car bound commuters in the city would be shocked at how much more money they'd spend in the operation of their vehicle simply due to the sort of necessity they'd have with it living just a bit upstate.
No because:
1. near upstate, basically places you can get to on a daily commute using Metro North or buses are already feeders for NYC.
Talking about completely new developments of housing and jobs in the upstate region. Eliminating the need for people to commute from upstate NY into the 5 boroughs everday for work. In other words those that move upstate NY would be living and working there too.
2. Underdeveloped NY State is all the way up in the north, a solid 8 hours away in Buffalo, or in western New York. Needless to say, what happens up there and what happens in NYC aren't related in any particular way.
With development of the upstate NY region it would not need to relate to what is happening in NYC. It would be just another option for those that are tired of living crowded up in NYC. Paying top dollar for apartments in many cases that are not worth the price.
3. Properties in metro area NY already expensive, with single houses in places like Ulster County heading into the million dollar price range, and they don't even have a direct connection to Metro North. More demand will just raise the prices further. Given that price is already a great deterrent in NYC real estate, I doubt average people will be making the trek to the greater metro area.
This is the reason that new housing catering to the middle class would be built.
4. Cars and gas are an expense that most NYers do without. Even car bound commuters in the city would be shocked at how much more money they'd spend in the operation of their vehicle simply due to the sort of necessity they'd have with it living just a bit upstate.
Each time we use public transportation here (buses and trains) we are really paying for gas, transit employee salaries and putting profit in the city of NY's pocket. The only difference is that NYC transit is the one doing the driving. Not to mention the fact that almost every year NYC Transit is raising the fares for the MetroCard. So what are we really saving? As stated above there would be no need to commute to NYC from upstate NY because the jobs would be there and people would be living there.
Basically asking people to think outside the box and be open minded. Just like NYC was CREATED to be the way it is today......upstate NY can be CREATED to be an attractive place to live too. With affordable housing in the upstate NY region along with new companies and jobs....that will alleviate some of the demand to live in the 5 boroughs. Lower demand = lower cost of living. In other words give people some options that are just as attractive as living in the 5 boroughs and the smart one's will take it.
Do you believe that people will go wherever the jobs and affordable housing is....especially in this economic condition that we are all in?
Location: Port Richmond, Staten Island, New York City, New York, 10302
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But then wouldn't all the middle class and working poor people in the five boroughs just flee to the new-and-improved more affordable regions upstate leaving all them previously rent-controlled apartments behind to be swallowed up by whatever crazy person/people from elsewhere in the country is willing to pay the most?
No, NYC is what it is today because when it was founded it was an extremely attractive trade port. The east river isn't a river, it's actually an extension of the atlantic ocean as well as the Long Island Sound, so you could just drive a ship into port very easily anywhere in the city. It remained populated up until the middle of the last century because it was the main immigration port on the US east coast, then airplanes showed up and change all of that, though the metro area airports are still the most important airports on the east coast.
The main problem with your strategy is that there's really no reason to want to build this thing upstate. If you want to make people move farther out into the metro area, whatever, but why would a business build something in say Poughkeepsie rather than NYC? Hedgefunds are moving to CT because that's where the managers live for example. Is it cheaper to operate upstate? Does upstate provide more infrastructure for businesses to operate on?
Upstate in the buffalo region and in Western NY, and pretty much anywhere north of Albany is cheaply priced already. In fact, people are leaving in droves from these regions, not for NYC, but for an entirely different state all together, largely because these regions relied heavily on manufacturing to support their economies, and that business has gone abroad. Even if your plan wants to turn buffalo into a financial district, they still don't have the appropriate infrastructure to support such a business. The financial industry gravitates to NYC simply because that's where the country's major stock exchanges are, and the congregation of their field in one area aids in the facilitation of business.
Not to mention that there are various issues you run into with telecommunications upstate which would hamper any sort of revitalization, not to mention tons of infrastructure rebuilding and repurposing which would cost into the billions, if not trillions of dollars.
But you know, ignoring all of that, what you've failed to establish is why would the middle class gravitate to this new metro area, or metro area extension. Just because an area is cheap doesn't mean that people will run to fill it up. Not to mention your silly comparison of MTA fares to the operation of a car. Gas in Manhattan is averaging $3.99 a gallon for regular. An average car gets 21mpg. The direct distance between the middle of brooklyn and midtown is about 7.5 miles, however, since we're driving by car, it's far more likely that the route we'll take will be ~9.5 miles, which means that roundtrip we'll be traveling 19 miles. Now presuming that the MPG is accurate, in gas we're slightly under the cost of riding MTA, however then we must consider the cost of parking the vehicle for the day, the insurance for the vehicle, the cost of maintenance, etc, all of which will drive the cost of ownership and operation of the vehicle higher than the metrocard fare.
And most damningly, if the construction of this new city in upstate NY 8 hours away doesn't affect NYC to your own admission, then how would it drive down the cost of living in the city. There are already tons of other small, growing cities in the rest of the country, but again, this has nothing to do with NYC itself. If anything, the migrants to these growing cities are from the nearby suburbs within that region. If anything, the current trend are that people are congregating towards a city, not moving away from it.
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