Quote:
Originally Posted by newjitty
also what's with the fascination traders and bankers...
...many of the pension contracts that union members are trying to keep and inflate were packaged and brokered by...
...Wall Street...
so if ya think everything Wall Street produces is garbage (which I generally agree with), do you also then think union members shouldn't be entitled to their pension package formulated by Wall Street?
Actually, you might be on to something.
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You appear as if you must be intimately familiar with Cannabis.
WHAT does Investment firms have to do with Pension contracts?
Goldman Sachs, for example, has nothing whatsoever to do with Pension Contracts, Union Contracts nor any contracts to do with Unions!
IF what you are trying to express is that Bonds which back some pension benefits with income produced from the interest earned, then yes, specialized 'Bond Firms do package and market the Bonds. Pension Bonds are not and were not a part of the trend of re-packaging Tranches of different bond issues into new bond packages, as was done in regard to mortgage backed bonds.
The firms that do this type of business are NOT the firms involved in mortgage backed securities nor credit default swaps regarding mortgage backed securities. Entirely different businesses! Government Bonds/Pension Bond business is a rather staid and sure business, which does not the sort of profit multiples for Investment firms such as Goldmand Sachs.
You are thinkin crap and talking crap. Educate! Study! Gain knowledge and understanding and you will not be propagandized.
The ignorance is astounding, simply astounding.
*****
You know, even though it was clear that you have a poor understanding of what you are pissed about, now that I think about it more, I think I get it.
You are pissed that Managers of Pension funds stupidly invested in mortgage backed securities that are now, at present, have little value (or to be accurate, a value that, as yet, cannot be determined). Some claim they are worthless. They do have value. That's another thread.
You do have a great justification to be angry and disgusted, BUT you are targeting the wrong party. It is the Pension Managers who bought the securities. No one put a gun to their heads. Literally, these people FAILED to execute their FIDUCIARY responsibility. It was their job to investigate the viability of investment proposals and to make sound decisions to the benefit of the funds they were responsible for.
The problem is, the Managers did not do their duty. They, as a group, purchased bond packages which they did not comprehend. Why wound responsible people make an investment which they don't understand? Good question, yet this is what they did, literally univrsally. Astounding.
What happened? Well, first they were lazy. Rather than do the homework which is their job, these managers relied on bond ratings issued by the rating agencies, such as Moody's. The rating agencies have the reputation of doing the due diligence (homework) which the fund managers s/h done themselves. Lazy!
So, if the Bond had the very best rating, AAA, then the managers invested. They like everyone else in the country acted with greed. They were offered an investment which promised very very attractiv e interest return, with seemingly little risk, as the AAA rating assured them. The problem is they NEVER attempted to corroborate the rating nor the risk, relying fully on the rating agencies' due diligence. Which we now know was no due diligence at all!
So who is responsible? The guy selling the con? Or, the guy buying the con? All cons work on the greed of the mark. If the pension managers had done their jobs, they would not have been suckered. Its that simple.
So, now, you should ask yourself, who were and are these Managers; more importantly, who the heck hire these idiots and put them in charge? These are the people who you SHOULD hold responsible. No one made them do it.
NOTE: one reality that allowed this to occur is that the guys on Wall Street are smarter than the guys who run the funds. Pension Fund managers are people who failed to get the big money jobs. People who failed to get on the investment desk of investment firms; failed to get on with private hedge funds. Sooo, they wind up as Pension and other similar type fund managers. They are second stringers at best.
They simply were incapable of comprehending mortgage back securities, and should not have made such an investment.
NOTE 2: these managers were, also, incented to seek high returns, as their compensation, to all or some degree, was tied to their respective fund's performance. The better the fund performed the better their compensation. So when the Bond salesman came calling the fund managers bought the promised returns lock, stock, and barrel.
Similarly, the rating agencies, not only acted corruptly, but also, their analyst are third stringers, who also were incapable of comprehending the risk involved with mortgage backed securities. They also relied upon the insurance (credit default swaps) which secured the bonds.
Of course, we all know that the nature of insurance requires that NOT ALL the insured demand payout at the same time. Which is precisely what happened. Not only did the insurer, AIG, over insure, they were hit with simultaneous payout demand. Obviously the could not pay---consequently the worth and value of the insured securities are effected.
That in a nutshell is the mortgage mess. Your venom, if you comprehend that s/b directed less at WALL STREET, and more toward the Pension Managers who wholly failed in their collective responsibility.
Wall Street's job is to sell investments. All investments are NOT equal, nor profitable. Investment Bankers sell investments, good and bad.
It is the Buyer's duty to judge good and bad; to invsetigat; do due diligence; HOMEWORK!
Sooo, you want to blame the Seller rather than the Buyer?
Does that really make sense?
Hey, did WALL STREET, at a certain point act whooly immorally? Certainly. Were they greedy? Certainly. Were they undisciplined in their actions, allowing basic human nature to prevail? Certainly.
But, I ask in what way is that different than the ordinary citizen who purchased real estate which they could not afford, was wholly above their station, and lied to do it?
It is all the same.
The only innocents in this entire fiasco, are the people who choose not to partake in the maddness, for reasons of prudence; or simply did not buy for reasons other.
Every single other person in this nation is culpable and should accept their culpability.
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