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Everyone seems to be caught up on the issue of "goals", when I'd say that the more important problem is the means to attain those goals. NO REVOLUTION can succeed without a plan of action, and that is a fact, not a means to blow OWS off.
And when it does, I might reconsider my support. But right now they still need to get their act together...
I think that is the problem, what does have to happen for you to give your support? I "have to happen" because that is how these things happen, the goals will come from the masses, not from the group of protesters. If OWS laid out specific goals of whatever means, you would just call them naive, but OWS happened because there is a growing distrust with those at the very top with the rest of the population, and that distrust isn't gonna go away because you don't support the OWS movement. For all we know, people like you might be the ones that have the "goals" needed for something like this to turn into a full blown revolution, but it is going to take something that pushes you to support this.
If the economy turns around tomorrow, and the unemployment drops, and productivity goes up, then OWS would simply fade away because people would be less concerned with the 1%, but if things get worse, then we will have a much different story, and then maybe you would be forced to support whatever movement that is going on because you might be in that situation where there is no other option....but again, only time will tell with this.
I think that is the problem, what does have to happen for you to give your support?...
Thank you for asking!
First, they'd have to change their behavior. No mugging, raping, or murdering by protestors. Be the change you want in the world, and all that. That means abiding by all laws, including where you can camp. The law does allow huge protest movements to occur within the bounds of the law, and it has happened plenty of times before.
Second, they need to respect the police. No chanting "F*** the police!" Frankly, I kinda wish that anyone who chants that gets raped while the cops just watch and do nothing.
Third, they'd have to have some organization. There needs to be somebody deciding what this movement represents. If there's nobody at the helm the ship can go anywhere at any time. This leads into number four...
Fourth, they need a published document outlining their problems with the current system, their policy solutions, and their method for implementing those policy solutions. This document needs to be supported by the majority of the movement. If some minority doesn't agree they can just go and start their own protest. This document is needed both to give a direction and so people can easily know whether or not they want to support the movement. Half the reason I don't support OWS is because I don't really know what OWS wants besides "free love" and "equality" and a couple other vague terms that could be - and have been - applied to nearly any type of policy.
Fifth, they need to be realistic about who they represent. Unless 99% of Americans actually do agree with them and they have the poll data to support it, they shouldn't be chanting that they speak for 99% of Americans. That's just basic maturity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78
If OWS laid out specific goals of whatever means, you would just call them naive
Not if they did what I outlined above! There are plenty of movements whose political goals I disagree with, but they act like adults and know what they want and how to get it so I don't make fun of them. OWS, however, is a different story. Whether or not I agree with OWS's politics isn't an issue. I disagree with their behavior. I'm all for many viewpoints... as long as they're presented maturely and reasonably.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78
For all we know, people like you might be the ones that have the "goals" needed for something like this to turn into a full blown revolution, but it is going to take something that pushes you to support this.
I'd support OWS if they did the above, as would (I think) the vaaast majority of Americans. But nobody wants to support a bunch of naive kids with iPads vaguely complaining about inequality. They want to support people who look like they know what they're talking about, have legitimate complaints, and have solutions in mind. In other words, people want winners, not losers.
First, they'd have to change their behavior. No mugging, raping, or murdering by protestors. Be the change you want in the world, and all that. That means abiding by all laws, including where you can camp. The law does allow huge protest movements to occur within the bounds of the law, and it has happened plenty of times before.
Second, they need to respect the police. No chanting "F*** the police!" Frankly, I kinda wish that anyone who chants that gets raped while the cops just watch and do nothing.
Third, they'd have to have some organization. There needs to be somebody deciding what this movement represents. If there's nobody at the helm the ship can go anywhere at any time. This leads into number four...
Fourth, they need a published document outlining their problems with the current system, their policy solutions, and their method for implementing those policy solutions. This document needs to be supported by the majority of the movement. If some minority doesn't agree they can just go and start their own protest. This document is needed both to give a direction and so people can easily know whether or not they want to support the movement. Half the reason I don't support OWS is because I don't really know what OWS wants besides "free love" and "equality" and a couple other vague terms that could be - and have been - applied to nearly any type of policy.
Fifth, they need to be realistic about who they represent. Unless 99% of Americans actually do agree with them and they have the poll data to support it, they shouldn't be chanting that they speak for 99% of Americans. That's just basic maturity.
Not if they did what I outlined above! There are plenty of movements whose political goals I disagree with, but they act like adults and know what they want and how to get it so I don't make fun of them. OWS, however, is a different story. Whether or not I agree with OWS's politics isn't an issue. I disagree with their behavior. I'm all for many viewpoints... as long as they're presented maturely and reasonably.
I'd support OWS if they did the above, as would (I think) the vaaast majority of Americans. But nobody wants to support a bunch of naive kids with iPads vaguely complaining about inequality. They want to support people who look like they know what they're talking about, have legitimate complaints, and have solutions in mind. In other words, people want winners, not losers.
The problem with this entire response is the use of the words "their" and "they." So clearly this is not something you are apart of, and much of what you have stated is generalized statements, I have been and seen a number of OWS protests, especially here in Portland and it would be far from what you have described.
And I don't think you would support "their" movement because it isn't something you see as yours.
Personally I associate myself with OWS, so in some respect, I am their views and with that come my way of seeing defined goals and demands, which I have posted a number of times in here, but I keep hearing the same thing over and over, that the movement is "vague" and I think it is only "vague" to those who don't want to take the time to listen to what is being said and applying it to their own goals to make it their own movement.
There is nothing wrong with not liking OWS, plenty of Americans hate change and or like to keep things as much the same as possible. There is a reason why this country hasn't had a revolution for so long and that is because we have too much invested in our own lives to worry about what is happening in our government and country.
For example, just today a co-worker got all upset about Obamacare, this man doesn't pay attention to anything political, but probably read one bad article about it and it got him going without doing any more looking into what he read...but give him a day or two and he will move on with it and go back to his life and not worry about what the government is doing. This is just a common reaction of most Americans. So I am gonna bet that you will never support OWS even if they somehow meet all your demands because you will still think that it is just a bunch of spoiled ipad youths....and that part of your statement can never be corrected because it would require all the old, white tea party people to some how take part in the movement, and we have all seen what kind of effect that has taken on our government, taking "do nothing government" to a whole new level.
The problem with this entire response is the use of the words "their" and "they." So clearly this is not something you are apart of
I'm using those words because I do not want to associate myself with them. You are absolutely correct. I'm not sure, however, how that has anything to do with either of our arguments on their value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78
I have been and seen a number of OWS protests, especially here in Portland and it would be far from what you have described.
Wait, wait, wait. Portland? This is the NYC forum.
And I have also been to many OWS protests and meetings and talked to protesters here in NYC (the origin of the movement, by the way). And it is exactly as I described. Judging by the reports coming out of other cities they're not so different in their lack of direction or knowledge, general disorder and uncleanliness, and immaturity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78
Personally I associate myself with OWS, so in some respect, I am their views and with that come my way of seeing defined goals and demands
I would hope that you have views and thus associate yourself with the movements that agree with you, not allow a movement to make decisions for you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78
There is a reason why this country hasn't had a revolution for so long...
We had a full on civil war a mere 150 years ago - recent in geopolitical terms. More recently we had the cultural and civil rights upheavals of the cold war a mere 30-40 years ago. Even more recent was the internet boom and the titanic shift in thinking that accompanied it. On what do you base your statement on?
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78
So I am gonna bet that you will never support OWS even if they somehow meet all your demands because you will still think that it is just a bunch of spoiled ipad youths....and that part of your statement can never be corrected because it would require all the old, white tea party people to some how take part in the movement, and we have all seen what kind of effect that has taken on our government, taking "do nothing government" to a whole new level.
First, I will support OWS once they meet my above requirements (basically: act like adults and educate themselves about the issues). It doesn't matter to me who is participating or even what their politics are as long as they do that.
Second, it sounds like you're assuming that who the movement is made up of determines its merit, rather than said movements contribution to politics and culture. Hence: your statement that old white people would ruin the movement. That kind of belief (common among OWS protesters) is one reason I can't support them yet. They're too wedded to appearances and stereotypes and not enough to substance. Just what, exactly, do you think old white people are generally like?
Your grasp of what revolutions are is based on nothing at all. The Russian Revolution was 75 years in the making. Even Hitler spent time in prison before the Nazis took over Germany. Read the history of the French Revolution and notice how many times it was crushed before it took off the royal heads.
No revolution starts from the grass roots and immediately succeeds without being crushed and quieted MANY times.
Because OWS takes time off from Winter shows that it has far more sense than the morons running the U.S. government who continue their disastrous policies 4 seasons of the year.
Read the history of the French Revolution and notice how many times it was crushed before it took off the royal heads.
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And look at what they did to each other after they "offed" the royals. Did life for the average Frenchman improve. NO! It was horrendous before and became even moreso after with the Revolution more interested in eating its own. It all ended with Napolean and I think the average Frenchman wa sgld he no longer had to live in fear.
This is what happens when "revolutions" lack focus, a concrete agenda and are led by anarchists.
While just about every one agrees that increasing social polarization threatens the viability of the USA we just dont see OWS being part of a solution. Dirty unwashed bodies, loud and lewd screaming, and other forms of degradation have no part in serious problem solving.....And please dont deny this as I went to the Park before they were chased out and I thought it was an encampment of mentally deranged people. Most assuredly most people working in that area, including many 99%ers were highly displeased at this invasion, especially when criminal elements arrived.
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