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If you walk east of the Concourse down 161st you will notice that they are rebuilding that entire area from the ground up....there are some nice, brand new buildings going up, as a well as a condo called "The Orion". I like the nieghborhood......everything is being built completely brand new...so it has that appeal. There are still a few empty lots that are awaiting approvals for construction, but most everything has already been bought up. The old Courthouse is a great building on 161st and 3rd ave (i Believe) and it is currently for sale...it would make a great bank, library, or commercial venture. If you have a bike it's a great way to see the area up close..I bike around there often to see all the new stuff going up.
I don't see where you get your information from? The real estate section of the Times? A Bronx for Manhattanites and mixed income people? What are you talking about...
Based off census data, you know, simple statistics based off income/population. The Bronx is becoming POORER.
MORE LOW INCOME PEOPLE FROM OTHER CITY NEIGHBORHOODS ARE MOVING INTO THE BRONX. Not Artist. Not yuppies trying to save money. SINGLE MOTHERS WITH 2-3 KIDS. Moving in from neighborhoods like BED-STUY, HARLEM, BUSHWICK, WASHINGTON HEIGHTS. Rents are out of control across the city, however the Bronx still has the "lowest" average rent. These people are doubling and tripling up into single apartments. Others are moving into the brand new low income housing developments located all over the South Bronx.
Living cost are GOING UP. So the struggle only gets worse. Most of these people will not leave. NYC is all they know and they will shift building to building in the Bronx/Harlem/Booklyn until they find a place they can afford.
The population of homeless families in the city is also at an all time high.
However unlike the rest of the city, the Bronx is the center of the low income housing boom.
2 new NYCHA developments were built in the last 2 years.
Every single building I see renovated, every new construction I see in the South Bronx is geared towards the low income population. An income ceiling.
What are you talking about a South Bronx for middle class people? The middle class not only left the South Bronx due to crime and social problems, the middle class left the South Bronx becuase apartment buildings and inner cities are undesireable for families. The wealthy don't want to live in ****ty tenenents down the block from housing projects. The structures standing in the Bronx today are only desireable to low income people. Why live in an old roach infested tenement with section 8 neighbors when you could live in a home in a much nicer neighborhood somewhere else?
Guywithacause. If anyone has an agenda, it's YOU. Just look at your name... Elvira Black I can at least understand, she likes NYC and she will stay even if she has to live in box. That's her problem. However you will boost the South Bronx so high it sounds ridiculous. The place has a lot of problems and the negatives far out weigh the positives.
Actually the better question should be where are YOU getting your information from, as I am the one that supplied you with one of the articles/reports that you are pulling information from.
I am in the commercial RE business, so I have access to information that A: people are unaware of and B: developments in the works that are not public. But enough about that, I will address your other comments.
I agree with some of your comments, the areas formerly known as the "South Bronx" (Mott Haven, Melrose, and Hunts Point, etc) are not being inundated with yuppies, millionaires, or the upper echelon of any sort. The community is being rebuilt to accomodate the needs, for the most part, of current residents of the community, especially the working class (not the poor). The new affordable housing that you mentioned is geared towards the working class, there is an income ceiling HOWEVER there is also a minimum income requirement as well: For ex, a 2 bedroom in the new affordable housing developments typically require a max income of $35,000 and a minimum of $30,000....this is affordable, working class housing....not projects. A significant step-up from the housing projects that allow welfare as your only source of income, and is essentially a holding cell for the destitute, homeless, etc....the new affordable housing is far from it.
The middle class did flee the Bronx, however much of the 2/3 family homes that are being built are now targeted to middle class families, with price tags of $600,000+....and they are being sold. Some rent them out and never live there, however some do not. And to answer your question, the reason why you, along with everyone else, "chooses to live in an old roach infested tenement with section 8 neighbors" is because that is where they can afford to live. Clearly, if we could all live in a much nicer neighborhood somewhere else, we all would! It's okay to live within your means, and live in a nieghborhood that is branded by many as a ghetto: I have moderate rent, a large apt, easy access to the city, a gazillion jobs, restaurants, and people. And that is fine with me and many others who are rethinking what it means to live in "the ghetto."
Please do not judge me by my name, as your handle of "HUSTLA" does not serve to instill any credibility or confidence. I have no agenda other than to provide my perspective, as a longterm resident of Mott Haven, on the changes that are occuring in my community, the good and the bad. I have not said anything that is untrue or unfair....everything I state is 100% fact, or has been my personal experience or the experience of other Mott Haven residents around me.
I do not question your comments or experiences; I understand that they come from a person who has only known the ghetto lifestyle and is involved in law enforcement in some capacity in these same neighborhoods, so I take them with a grain of salt, as most do. I only question why you would purposely choose to keep others from entering these communities and making them better. Furthermore, I question why you would choose to ignore all of the positive changes that have occurred in the Bronx and instead focus on the same old doom and gloom which does not apply anymore.
I believe the positives outweigh the negatives, which is why I live there. You believe the negatives far outweigh the positives and nobody of any substance should move in, yet you still live there and have always lived there. I talk the talk and walk the walk...why don't you?
Actually the better question should be where are YOU getting your information from, as I am the one that supplied you with one of the articles/reports that you are pulling information from.
I am in the commercial RE business, so I have access to information that A: people are unaware of and B: developments in the works that are not public. But enough about that, I will address your other comments.
I agree with some of your comments, the areas formerly known as the "South Bronx" (Mott Haven, Melrose, and Hunts Point, etc) are not being inundated with yuppies, millionaires, or the upper echelon of any sort. The community is being rebuilt to accomodate the needs, for the most part, of current residents of the community, especially the working class (not the poor). The new affordable housing that you mentioned is geared towards the working class, there is an income ceiling HOWEVER there is also a minimum income requirement as well: For ex, a 2 bedroom in the new affordable housing developments typically require a max income of $35,000 and a minimum of $30,000....this is affordable, working class housing....not projects. A significant step-up from the housing projects that allow welfare as your only source of income, and is essentially a holding cell for the destitute, homeless, etc....the new affordable housing is far from it.
The middle class did flee the Bronx, however much of the 2/3 family homes that are being built are now targeted to middle class families, with price tags of $600,000+....and they are being sold. Some rent them out and never live there, however some do not. And to answer your question, the reason why you, along with everyone else, "chooses to live in an old roach infested tenement with section 8 neighbors" is because that is where they can afford to live. Clearly, if we could all live in a much nicer neighborhood somewhere else, we all would! It's okay to live within your means, and live in a nieghborhood that is branded by many as a ghetto: I have moderate rent, a large apt, easy access to the city, a gazillion jobs, restaurants, and people. And that is fine with me and many others who are rethinking what it means to live in "the ghetto."
Please do not judge me by my name, as your handle of "HUSTLA" does not serve to instill any credibility or confidence. I have no agenda other than to provide my perspective, as a longterm resident of Mott Haven, on the changes that are occuring in my community, the good and the bad. I have not said anything that is untrue or unfair....everything I state is 100% fact, or has been my personal experience or the experience of other Mott Haven residents around me.
I do not question your comments or experiences; I understand that they come from a person who has only known the ghetto lifestyle and is involved in law enforcement in some capacity in these same neighborhoods, so I take them with a grain of salt, as most do. I only question why you would purposely choose to keep others from entering these communities and making them better. Furthermore, I question why you would choose to ignore all of the positive changes that have occurred in the Bronx and instead focus on the same old doom and gloom which does not apply anymore.
I believe the positives outweigh the negatives, which is why I live there. You believe the negatives far outweigh the positives and nobody of any substance should move in, yet you still live there and have always lived there. I talk the talk and walk the walk...why don't you?
The information I post is universally known.
However in NYC, the working class is the poor. The working poor. Struggling to make ends meat. You think $30,000 a year is a lot of money? In NYC you are poor. You spend the bulk of your income on housing and then kill the rest on things you need. Forget saving. You live check to check. That is AFFORDABLE housing.
And they aren't a GRAND step up from the PJ's either. It's the same idea. The NYCHA along with other city housing programs across the USA were originally planned as a place for working families of low income. Don't blame the problems in the projects on the unemployed. Plenty of criminals are employed. **** jobs don't exactly pull you out of poverty.
Give it a couple years. In these neighborhoods the population inside the surrounding housing projects, section 8, and **** buildings will drag the new ones down. They already sell drugs out of every single one I have been to. Yes new construction/renovations.
As for the middle class. The Bronx is just taking on more poor. I see more areas outside the South Bronx going to **** slowly all the time. The townhouses you speak of. First of all most South Bronxites live in tenements, then NYCHA buildings, and lastly townhouses. Next most people buy them and rent them out now. locals can't afford them unless they are subsidized (600k), outsiders don't want to live in those areas and do not desire the housing. Small apartments, cheap materials. Also there are 1-2 additional units in them all. They are rented out.
As for the name "guywithacause". Lets be serious... Your name states you have an AGENDA... I won't get on you about the name anymore becuase it is stupid.
But the end question is...
Why don't I encourage people to move to the South Bronx???
Becuase it is a ****hole and it's not changing. Why spend money on a ****hole when we are here to recommend decent neighborhoods.
I understand recommending other parts of the Bronx borough (Pelham Bay, Riverdale, ect), but the South Bronx is a dump.
And if you honestly think the postives outweigh the negatives in the South Bronx, you either live in a shell or you are lieing to yourself. Make a simple point by point list of your positives and negatives and we will see whats going on in your head.
I don't live in a box, Hustla--I've said again and again how happy I am with my current residence for many reasons.
In any case, newcomers and folks thinking of moving here will get the pros and cons, which is probably not the worst thing in the world. Like most things in life, there are plenty of opinions to go around. In the end, you have to just judge for yourself and decide what's right for you without going into debt if possible.
Again, people fresh out of school making 25, 30, 35, 40K can't afford the "better" areas. Talk about doubling and tripling up--do you realize what young people do to live in some of the "hip" areas? They, um....double and triple up! They may come from middle class backgrounds, but not every parent has a trust fund to support their NYC lifestyle. To them it's a new exciting experience, so they put up with closet-sized dumps (in Manhattan too) just to be here.
Hustla, anything is possible, of course. Recession may be on the way; we've got a foreclosure crisis; national housing prices are declining; high debts; a war going on; terrorists waiting to eradicate us; etc.
Everything's a gamble to some extent. But if you live in fear all the time, and expect the worst, and never take a chance, what kind of life is it, anyway?
Hustla I agree that is you are making $30,000 a year and you are a single mother with 2+ kids, then yes, you are poor...and there are NUMEROUS government programs that can assist you...and they help quite a bit..whether it be rent subsidies, food stamps, whatever. If you are a single person, or right out of school, you are NOT poor in this city..you can easily afford to live in places that you call "the ghetto" on that salary, or get a roomy or two and live in a betetr place and live quite well. Salary alone does not constitute poverty...that's my point.
I have to disagree with you, as these new affordable housing units are a BIG step forward, unfortantely much of the poor in the housing projects will never know because they don't qualify to live in these new affordable housing buildings due to the income minimums. These 5 story new affordable housing buildings are a far cry from the 30 story hell holes that are really just holding cells for the homeless, destitute, or hard luck cases. The buildings are aesthetically appealing, and cater to the working/middle class of the city...not the poor...do your homework.
And your "give it a couple years" attitude is no surprise. If people of susbstance, good character, professionals, investors, and entreprenuers listen to your "advice" and abandon the community and take all hope with them, then yes, I would agree that it will all go to ****. Fortunately, that is not occuring, and the spotlight is back on the Bronx. The investors, new faces, homeowners, immigrants, transplants, and college-kids are looking into the Bronx and laying their bets...so I say in a couple years it will be better...not worse.
And yes I honestly believe the positives outweigh the negatives, and that does not mean I am lying to myself nor do I live in a shell. I am a reasonable, rational, equitable person that can access the good and bad, and Mott Haven is ideal for me and my current situation. As a single guy, I don't have kids so the school are not a priority for me (although nonetheless they are important), proximity to the city is key, affordability is utmost important, space is important, and easy public transportation is key also. So why would I not find the positives outweigh the negatives? It is just what you value and what is important for you...quite simple.
I suspect if you were able to look outside the box, really listen to the many perspectives on here, and try to understand why so many are rethinking what it means to live in what you term "the ghetto" or "****hole," you might also want to stay and make things better also.
Elvira I agree! You have to take a chance, life is a gamble. Those of us that have entered areas that Hustla terms "****holes" and "the ghetto" 5 years ago have reaped the rewards....some more than others. Some places have completely changed, while other are still at the beginning stages....either way, progress has been made and communities that have completely changed have no sign of going back, while others can go either way. It is for everyone? no. Are alot of people considering it? yes. Are alot of people doing it? yes. Is it worth it? It has been for many! Will all neighborhoods improve the same way? Probably not, but who knows. Is it worth trying? I say YES!
No way Moth..I am not one for politics. I do like to give a fair assessment of the Bronx however, based on my experience, the experience of those around me, and the facts that I know. I do not believe Hustla gives the city, or the Bronx in particular, a fair assessment, and maybe it's just because he cannot see past his own personal and professional experiences and circumstances. Some people just don't have the experience or knowledge to see value or worth where others do...and that is a key element to being successful, entreprenuerial, and a visionary...if everyone had it..we would all be in tip-top shape!
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