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Old 05-29-2012, 10:36 AM
 
577 posts, read 896,986 times
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I read this article with great interest when it was first published. As another poster pointed out, there aren't enough white kids in the city to make every school "equally diverse." Once you factor out the religious families-- both christian and Jewish-- sending their kids to religious schools, the white kids are decidedly in the minority. Even if "the 1%" (as someone mentioned) were forced to send their kids to public school, that would only raise the portion of white kids by... 1%. And that's assuming all the 1% are white.

As far as African and Caribbean immigrants, my experience (with 3 city mostly black/ Hispanic schools) is that these kids tend to do better-- in terms of behavior and academics-- than the non immigrant AA kids. So I'm not sure I could agree that immigrant blacks are internalizing negative stereotypes to the point that they can't function properly in school. I've seen some do amazingly well in school and go on to elite high schools.

In my view, the success of asians in the city's school is the death knell for claims of racism within the system. The same could be said for institutions of higher learning.

So in the end I was left wondering what, exactly, this article was even about.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:42 PM
 
8,572 posts, read 8,468,186 times
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Originally Posted by mermaid825 View Post

As far as African and Caribbean immigrants, my experience (with 3 city mostly black/ Hispanic schools) is that these kids tend to do better-- in terms of behavior and academics-- than the non immigrant AA kids. So I'm not sure I could agree that immigrant blacks are internalizing negative stereotypes to the point that they can't function properly in school. I've seen some do amazingly well in school and go on to elite high schools.

Erasmus Hall, Prospects Heights, Wingate, Tilden, Evander Childs. All schools which had large Caribbean populations. Most if not all of these schools are closed.

It makes no sense to compare a small pool of kids from upper middle class backgrounds and immigrant origins, see them do well and then make comparisons. Many of the elite AA kids arent even in the city,their parents have long fled to the suburbs.

And of course how does one know who is immigrant origin and who isnt. Give them a few years and they dont sound any different.

The reality is that blacks are UNDER reprsented at the elite high schools and the elite CUNY colleges. This to me suggests that immigrant origin kids from working and lower middle class backgrounds (the VAST majority) have issues. Clearly not as extreme as those faced by AAs from the poorest bcakgrounds, but it does no one any good by pretending that there arent serious problems among black immigrant origin kids.

And while I see some Nigerian/Ghanaian origin kids (based on their last names) mioving forward whats happening to the Francophone African origin kids trapped in failing schools in Harlem and the Bronx? These coming mainly from working class families.
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Old 05-29-2012, 03:12 PM
 
Location: USA
2,110 posts, read 2,585,104 times
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Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Erasmus Hall, Prospects Heights, Wingate, Tilden, Evander Childs. All schools which had large Caribbean populations. Most if not all of these schools are closed.

It makes no sense to compare a small pool of kids from upper middle class backgrounds and immigrant origins, see them do well and then make comparisons. Many of the elite AA kids arent even in the city,their parents have long fled to the suburbs.


And of course how does one know who is immigrant origin and who isnt. Give them a few years and they dont sound any different.

The reality is that blacks are UNDER reprsented at the elite high schools and the elite CUNY colleges. This to me suggests that immigrant origin kids from working and lower middle class backgrounds (the VAST majority) have issues. Clearly not as extreme as those faced by AAs from the poorest bcakgrounds, but it does no one any good by pretending that there arent serious problems among black immigrant origin kids.

And while I see some Nigerian/Ghanaian origin kids (based on their last names) mioving forward whats happening to the Francophone African origin kids trapped in failing schools in Harlem and the Bronx? These coming mainly from working class families.
Thank you for providing a very educated post on the subject. I also heard they closed down Canarsie as well. More West Indian kids and kids of West Indian parentage are dealing with the same issues than people realize. I think because you and I are West Indian and mingled with many West Indians we realize the reality of the situation.
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Old 05-29-2012, 03:36 PM
 
8,572 posts, read 8,468,186 times
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Originally Posted by brooklynight View Post
Thank you for providing a very educated post on the subject. I also heard they closed down Canarsie as well. More West Indian kids and kids of West Indian parentage are dealing with the same issues than people realize. I think because you and I are West Indian and mingled with many West Indians we realize the reality of the situation.


There is too much of the old divide and rule going. The trick is to develop the notion of good blacks (West Indians...although less so these days, and Africans...the new favorites) and bad blacks....AAs. Largely because the latter group makes more demands of the system....some think.

Another is the upper middle class black immigrant who attempts to secure his position in the USA as a black person by peddling the same misinformation. I invite any one to hang out on White Plains Rd, Nostrand Ave or Utica Ave late at night, especially in the summer, and then get back to me as if there is still this dichotomy between foreign and native blacks. These arent choir boys headed by Baruch, Brooklyn Collehe or Hunter.

The truth is that some are making it and some are not. Most are struggling. While black immigrants, being a select group (Immigrants tend to be the most ambitious and risk oriented), and not having a legacy of Jim Crow, will be less likely to be trapped by the extreme pathologies of the ghetto AA for us to make it to be a purely AA problem is to miss the point. Males of AA, West Indian/Haitian and PRican/Dominican have huge problems in this city. Some self inflicted, some of a more institutional nature.

I remember West Indians in the early 80s (before this problem became very obvious) claiming "we go to Yale and black americans go to jail". Well that seems very silly now when we see how many incarcerated males come from Crown Heights, Flatbush, East Flatbush, and Williamsbridge. And more than a few from BeSty, Brownsville, ENY are also West Indian origin.

There is something about growing up as a young black male in North America and Europe which poses barriers in the heads of many, regardless of ethnic origin.
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:23 PM
 
Location: USA
2,110 posts, read 2,585,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
There is too much of the old divide and rule going. The trick is to develop the notion of good blacks (West Indians...although less so these days, and Africans...the new favorites) and bad blacks....AAs. Largely because the latter group makes more demands of the system....some think.

Another is the upper middle class black immigrant who attempts to secure his position in the USA as a black person by peddling the same misinformation. I invite any one to hang out on White Plains Rd, Nostrand Ave or Utica Ave late at night, especially in the summer, and then get back to me as if there is still this dichotomy between foreign and native blacks. These arent choir boys headed by Baruch, Brooklyn Collehe or Hunter.

The truth is that some are making it and some are not. Most are struggling. While black immigrants, being a select group (Immigrants tend to be the most ambitious and risk oriented), and not having a legacy of Jim Crow, will be less likely to be trapped by the extreme pathologies of the ghetto AA for us to make it to be a purely AA problem is to miss the point. Males of AA, West Indian/Haitian and PRican/Dominican have huge problems in this city. Some self inflicted, some of a more institutional nature.

I remember West Indians in the early 80s (before this problem became very obvious) claiming "we go to Yale and black americans go to jail". Well that seems very silly now when we see how many incarcerated males come from Crown Heights, Flatbush, East Flatbush, and Williamsbridge. And more than a few from BeSty, Brownsville, ENY are also West Indian origin.

There is something about growing up as a young black male in North America and Europe which poses barriers in the heads of many, regardless of ethnic origin.
I think a lot people do this to passively say they think American Blacks are the lowest common demonstrator of human beings. Most people cannot tell that I am foreign unless I tell them, because I came to America at eight years old. Depending on the day you can easily tell. When some do and see that I have exceled pretty well in this country a few try to bring up in so many how foreign blacks are superior. I do not fall for the okeydoke.

Plus, like you said, they only go by a small sample size. A few black foreigners whom they went to college with or worked with.

Last edited by Beliciano; 05-30-2012 at 12:26 AM..
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Old 05-30-2012, 12:05 AM
 
Location: Bronx
16,200 posts, read 22,938,302 times
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Top Colleges Take More Blacks, but Which Ones? - New York Times

This is probably true. I expect more from people who have been here since 1776 no matter what color they are.
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Old 05-30-2012, 12:33 AM
 
3,244 posts, read 5,219,754 times
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Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
I don't know what the point of this comment is? We are supposed to say "well everyone else made interacial marriage illegal, so it's ok for us too?" I didn't realize our morality and laws were based on what other countries were doing? We should be following China, Iran, and South Korea's laws right now?
You response is off point, as was your original comment. My point was, and is, that the variety of racial & ethnic groups in the USA generally encouraged marriage within their group, not that they enacted any laws to mandate this or to prevent intermarriage. You persist in viewing whites, and possibly asians, as some homogenous group, when that is not the case.
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Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
I personally don't carry on "about the Man", but the idea that racism and it's impact is now just a figment of people's imagination and has no bearing on life in NYC, or scarier places in the US in 2012 is laughable. ... I can list quite a few cases of similar outrageous behavior by police
Oh, please! Citing individual cases, as if they represent some actual agenda, is ridiculous. This week's big huff-and-puff is a black sergeant talking tough to some thug. Must be a Tom, eh?
I've said it before, and I'll repeat it here: NO group was welcomed into this country with open arms. Each had to fight its way in, then deal with and rise above prejudice and discrimination. Success comes from avoiding self-pity and not letting the opinions or actios of others control who you are, or how you progress in this society.
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Old 05-30-2012, 01:30 AM
 
31 posts, read 68,501 times
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The PC "blame white people crowd" is really getting on my nerves. Here's my summary of what that crowd is saying:

If black students are underachieving in a public school and white students are the majority then its the system's fault for favoring those white students.

If black students are underachieving in a public school where white kids are the minority then the reason the school is bad is because white students don't go there and the system abandons the school for being predominately black.



I love that every time black students underachieving is brought up the white students who do or don't go to the same schools are to blame. Personal responsibility, upbringing, social class, etc are never mentioned. If black parents don't play a role in their child's education and encourage their kids to do well then their children will always be a step behind. Personal responsibility is the name of the game.
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Old 05-30-2012, 08:48 AM
 
8,743 posts, read 18,315,972 times
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Nobody is blaming anyone...I am however CORRECTING misinformation. If you believe the reason problems persist in communities of color is because "self-pity and blame game" you are wrong. Nor am I saying all "whites" are the same..in fact 90% of people who claim white in this city aren't..Jews? Italians? Greeks? Umm...no..none of them are yet they are "blessed" with the moniker..why is that? But that is for a different discussion.

Institutional racism, as evidenced by the repeated police cases for example, is evident. It isn't "one off"..as I can provide alot of it..this was just a recent example. And I agree that every group was met with hostility and inequality, with the Irish a prime example of some horrific treatment. Their extreme segregation created the first "ghettos" in NYC, which every subsequent group has followed.

I am all for personal responsibility...all the personal responsibility in the world does not magically approve you for a mortgage when they won't give you a mortgage when you are black. (Institutional). All the personal responsibility in the world doesn't matter when you can't buy a home in lots of places because you are black (Institutional). All the personal responsibility in the world doesn't matter when they won't hire you because you are black (Institutional). All of the personal responsibility in the world doesn't matter when the schools you attend are lousy at best (Institutional). All the personal responsibility in the world won't matter when you have no access to capital (Institutional).

All of those things have only RECENTLY changed over the last 30 years or so.....you do realize Parkchester was openly discriminatory "NO BLACKS" until 1979? So if you believe 500 years of open and blatant destruction of a population can be reversed with 30 years of covert discrimination is laughable. That "personal responsibility" is to blame if you haven't become on par with the dominant group who have had generations to build up wealth, education, networks, businesses, and all the opportunites and advantages, it is in fact YOU who are playing the blame game..not I.
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Old 05-30-2012, 12:01 PM
 
3,244 posts, read 5,219,754 times
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Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
Nobody is blaming anyone
Then, you go on to blame people ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
If you believe the reason problems persist in communities of color is because "self-pity and blame game" you are wrong.
Based on your comments, perhaps it's 50% whining.
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Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
Institutional racism ... is evident. ... they won't give you a mortgage when you are black. (Institutional). ... you can't buy a home in lots of places because you are black (Institutional). ... they won't hire you because you are black (Institutional). ... the schools you attend are lousy at best (Institutional). ... you have no access to capital (Institutional).
Black people can, and have, owned homes, obtained mortgages, received good educations, and found work, as long as those concepts have existed. Some institutions have discriminated against blacks, as they have against Jews, immigrants, poor whites, etc. The point is to get over it and get on with it, not to wallow in it.
You think that banks loaned money to the Jews who built the garment district? Learn about "factoring". http://www.ladieswholaunch.com/magaz...h-a-factor/875 That the Irish had access to capital? Emigrant Savings Bank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Ironically, the bank is now owned by Jews!
http://www.amazon.com/Right-Worthy-G.../dp/0882582100
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Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
Parkchester was openly discriminatory "NO BLACKS" until 1979?
Who cares? You make it seem as if black people couldn't live in the Bronx, for chrissakes!
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Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
if you believe 500 years of open and blatant destruction of a population can be reversed with 30 years of covert discrimination is laughable.
165 years has now become 500? Slavery in the colonies/states existed from 1700 to 1865. Exploitation has now become destruction? The 655,000 slaves imported into the USA now have 35 million descendants! By comparison, it is estimated that the native population remains the same, as it was 300 years ago, at about 3 million.

Last edited by bigjake54; 05-30-2012 at 12:14 PM..
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