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Who said anything about running? We’re still here for the foreseeable future and haven’t made a single decision to leave. To be clear, the increased crime is not why we are are thinking about moving. Like you, my spouse is Black (and strangely enough, has been on the receiving end of a few racist incidents, and not by Whites either.) We’re not looking to go to Park Slope or Williamsburg or Cobble Hill or one of those type of areas. We’re most likely going to Flatbush if we do leave. My husband grew up around there and we want a neighborhood where we’re both comfortable in. Pre-COVID, with work I was barely ever home. We spend a lot of time in in Flatbush and Crown Heights, so it makes sense for us. If we had a car, I wouldn’t mind considering Canarsie. We’ve also been considering buying a house somewhere in the East Bronx, perhaps in Wakefield or Williamsbridge area.
The impetus for my wanting to leave the neighborhood is... well, there is almost no neighborhood left. The neighborhood is literally being demolished blocked by block. There’s almost nothing left of entire blocks. There’s no longer any thing here that I am familiar with. If I had left 10 or 15 years ago and come back now, I wouldn’t recognize entire streets because everything has been demolished and rebuilt. I know that this is happening in other areas and it’s not just here, but for such a small neighborhood a huge proportion of it has been completely obliterated. It’s a complete free-for-all for real estate developers. A lot of my friends have already left in past years, so I don’t have the social network that I used to. I could just hang out, run into a few people, and just play it by ear. If everything and everyone I love is gone, what is the point?
Bedford Park hasn’t been a White neighborhood in decades. It was a lot of Puerto Ricans and of course older Irish, Jews, Italians, and then later, the Albanians. Most of them are long gone. There aren’t even a lot of Puerto Ricans left. Pelham Parkway has changed quite a bit to over the last 15 to 20 years. It’s whiter thank Bedford Park, but I wouldn’t necessarily call it a White neighborhood anymore. The Bronx itself is under 10% White at this point.
I also don’t understand this mentality that if you condemn police brutality and corruption, then you should have to fend for yourself. Therein lies the problem. People should be able to live in safe communities and not be harassed by cops– it should never be one or the other. The same thing with the overabundance of social services, shelters, and supportive housing. It’s like, if you don’t want your entire neighborhood to be inundated with these types of programs, then you’re anti-homeless or anti-poor or anti-addict. Yet, there is not nearly the pushback when White folks from a community like the Upper Westside or some neighborhood in Queens does the same. Why is that? If this is not okay in other folks’ communities, why is it okay for ours?
What what race or ethnicity I am really doesn’t matter at this point. Because to you if I leave, I’m either a Tom or part of the White Flight.
I agree. It the first step to living in safe communities, is a sort of broken window policy. If one drug dealer settles in and then it brings drame then the next settles in then the druggies show up, make it their supermarket, then rivalry starts, beef, shootings and a nice neighborhood becomes a dump.
Bedford Park still has a lot of old buildings, and most of the new buildings replaced abandoned ones. Villa Avenue is garbage, and there’s a set of three buildings being demolished soon, it was just abandoned buildings, except for the Albanian cafe being the only occupant.
Not being harassed by cops is great, but feeling unsafe in your area because of civilians is something else. And I grew up in a city and lived in areas comparable to the Bronx before I immigrated to America, so I had the time and opportunity to analyze the patterns of how and why neighborhoods decline and sometimes become no-go zones (do t know if they exist in the US but in the country I was born and raised even firefighters and doctors coming to help are often attacked, so imagine the cops, and imagine why, and living conditions for average people).
That is beyond an exaggeration. The vast majority of the neighborhood is untouched by that development. I'm with you that your area of Bedford Park is unrecognizable, but I wouldn't have even seen it if we weren't bored with nothing to do in the pandemic and walking each block just because. Like I said, I hadn't been to Villa or 202, 203 in years. It doesn't make it right, but it's as if you want the whole neighborhood to be destroyed since the part that you live in was.
I love this neighborhood and I don’t want any of it to be destroyed. Bedford Park is a pretty small neighborhood. Having two streets that have almost been completely demolished or are slated to be (202nd and 203rd) is huge. Having swaths of other streets lose the many of their small homes (205th, 206th, St. George Crescent, Villa) is huge. Have you ever looked at a real estate site like Trulia over the past 5 years? Prior to COVID and of course the demolitions, there were houses for sale on virtually every block, many of which are now gone or being demolished now.
Even in the prior to 2010, we lost some homes and buildings, like the one on Lisbon and Mosholu Pkwy, the one on Decatur and 201st. The large house on Grand Concourse near St. Phillip Neri. Then there are the few houses that are abandoned on Concourse and the one on Valentine/201st. Even the house that burnt and was demolished on Bedford Park near Villa or the Lutheran School that was demolished to build on Bedford Park and the Grand Concourse.
It just strikes me as so odd that you don’t know seem to know what’s going on outside of your block and don’t seem concerned. You’re acting as if we’d live in entirely different neighborhoods. Again, Bedford Park compared to many other neighborhoods is tiny– we don’t have this endless supply of small dwellings. The juxtaposition of private homes and apartment houses made it interesting and special. It’s bizarre that you can claim to love a neighborhood but then say you haven’t travelled as far as somewhere a five minute walk away in years. Maybe these blocks don’t mean anything to you, but they mean a lot to the people who grew up here and came of age here. They aren’t like trees where you knock them down and they grow back. Entire parts of our history have been erased. I wonder if you have any connection to the people here at all.
The subway is the subway... and let’s not forget that Pelham Parkway and White Plains is a hub. Two train lines and countless buses, both NYC MTA and Westchester Bee Line. It is also a shopping area with stores supermarkets, pharmacies... so it will always be seedy somehow.
Yeah, but most of White Plains Road is seedy, from Wakefield all the way down.
I love this neighborhood and I don’t want any of it to be destroyed. Bedford Park is a pretty small neighborhood. Having two streets that have almost been completely demolished or are slated to be (202nd and 203rd) is huge. Having swaths of other streets lose the many of their small homes (205th, 206th, St. George Crescent, Villa) is huge. Have you ever looked at a real estate site like Trulia over the past 5 years? Prior to COVID and of course the demolitions, there were houses for sale on virtually every block, many of which are now gone or being demolished now.
Even in the prior to 2010, we lost some homes and buildings, like the one on Lisbon and Mosholu Pkwy, the one on Decatur and 201st. The large house on Grand Concourse near St. Phillip Neri. Then there are the few houses that are abandoned on Concourse and the one on Valentine/201st. Even the house that burnt and was demolished on Bedford Park near Villa or the Lutheran School that was demolished to build on Bedford Park and the Grand Concourse.
It just strikes me as so odd that you don’t know seem to know what’s going on outside of your block and don’t seem concerned. You’re acting as if we’d live in entirely different neighborhoods. Again, Bedford Park compared to many other neighborhoods is tiny– we don’t have this endless supply of small dwellings. The juxtaposition of private homes and apartment houses made it interesting and special. It’s bizarre that you can claim to love a neighborhood but then say you haven’t travelled as far as somewhere a five minute walk away in years. Maybe these blocks don’t mean anything to you, but they mean a lot to the people who grew up here and came of age here. They aren’t like trees where you knock them down and they grow back. Entire parts of our history have been erased. I wonder if you have any connection to the people here at all.
I said many times how terrible I think this construction is over there, and I was shocked when I saw it, but I feel like for you, showing concern means saying the whole neighborhood was destroyed, and that's not what I think. You're upset and you want to trash it all I think. None of it is fair and I'm sorry about it, but I can't change it - believe me I would if I could.
There's no way i can get to Villa in 5 minutes though. The neighborhood is tiny north/south and longer east/west. If I had a car I'm sure I would have at least driven through there a long time ago, but walking, it has to be either a destination or a stroll and there's no destination there and I never thought of that as a place to stroll. It doesn't mean I don't care, not at all. Actually now that I think about it, we ended up there looking for the place where the virgin appeared in the 40s, so we ended up there because of a destination and 202/203 strolling.
I was at community board and committee meetings when the zoning was being proposed and was strongly opposed, but it went through anyway. Were you involved at the time and what was your opinion? It was very disillusioning for me and the only way not to stay upset about it is to accept that this is something that I can't change. For me there's so much I still love about the neighborhood like I said before. By that I don't mean to minimize anything that you feel or even expect you to feel the same way.
As far as Fedders, I hate them and have said that on here lots of times. I don't know what outerborough neighborhood (with non landmarked houses) has been untouched by them. From what I've read, if you're considering Flatbush, you're probably running right into what you say you're running away from.
However BxGyrl, where I am confused is, you say you could consider leaving the neighborhood due to increasing crime, and cars being broken into and all and all... then you also said new developments are welcoming homeless people, low income, etc... then you said the actual reason why you would move out is excessive development... so I am confused, are you tempted to leave due to crime or overdevelopment? These new development (a tiny percentage of BP) would replace blocks that are fully abandoned, real estate prices went up at the very least 25% over the past 5 years, and new development usually means a mix of market rate and affordable housing (you know affordable housing requiring 75K a year).
You also said you distrust NYPD’s numbers due to their harassment of blacks and Hispanics, yet you and/or your husband did not hesitate to report cars that were broken into, even though they’re not yours.... quite confusing I have to say.
I am really confused... then like Yodel said, you mention moving to Flatbush... And just like Yodel said, you may find worse than what you would get away from. I used to live in Brooklyn, I worked with the social services, I was also a livery cab driver (night shift on top of that), my base was in Bed Stuy where I used to reside, and every single night it was the usual circuit between Bed Stuy, Crown Heights, Brownsville, East NY, Flatbush, East Flatbush (for both jobs).....if you’re tired of shooting, gang activity or drug dealing, turf wars between local gangs, my advice is do NOT move to Flatbush. Unless you can afford the Ditmas Park sub section, but it is not for every budget.
You also mentioned Canarsie.... very confusing as well, a few blocks are decent, the rest of it is isolated, boring, food is crap, lots of gangs, lots of shootings, lots of drugs, especially by the Belt Parkway, the last stop on the L train, and the border with East NY by the Breukelyn Houses....
For the same budget you could get a nice place in Yonkers, Downtown New Rochelle, or Pelham Bay...
Also, if seeing old original buildings being demolished bother you so much , you will be upset every day in Brooklyn, especially Flatbush as of now. They have been razing and erasing block after block after block. When I lived in Brooklyn, every week you would see the green fences wrapping around buildings, Art Deco type warehouses, Victorian houses, for them to be torn down and replaced by “luxury” condos...but this is just my opinion...
Last edited by Robert.Dinero; 12-24-2020 at 02:38 PM..
However BxGyrl, where I am confused is, you say you could consider leaving the neighborhood due to increasing crime, and cars being broken into and all and all... then you also said new developments are welcoming homeless people, low income, etc... then you said the actual reason why you would move out is excessive development... so I am confused, are you tempted to leave due to crime or overdevelopment? These new development (a tiny percentage of BP) would replace blocks that are fully abandoned, real estate prices went up at the very least 25% over the past 5 years, and new development usually means a mix of market rate and affordable housing (you know affordable housing requiring 75K a year).
You also said you distrust NYPD’s numbers due to their harassment of blacks and Hispanics, yet you and/or your husband did not hesitate to report cars that were broken into, even though they’re not yours.... quite confusing I have to say.
I am really confused... then like Yodel said, you mention moving to Flatbush... And just like Yodel said, you may find worse than what you would get away from. I used to live in Brooklyn, I worked with the social services, I was also a livery cab driver (night shift on top of that), my base was in Bed Stuy where I used to reside, and every single night it was the usual circuit between Bed Stuy, Crown Heights, Brownsville, East NY, Flatbush, East Flatbush (for both jobs).....if you’re tired of shooting, gang activity or drug dealing, turf wars between local gangs, my advice is do NOT move to Flatbush. Unless you can afford the Ditmas Park sub section, but it is not for every budget.
You also mentioned Canarsie.... very confusing as well, a few blocks are decent, the rest of it is isolated, boring, food is crap, lots of gangs, lots of shootings, lots of drugs, especially by the Belt Parkway, the last stop on the L train, and the border with East NY by the Breukelyn Houses....
For the same budget you could get a nice place in Yonkers, Downtown New Rochelle, or Pelham Bay...
Also, if seeing old original buildings being demolished bother you so much , you will be upset every day in Brooklyn, especially Flatbush as of now. They have been razing and erasing block after block after block. When I lived in Brooklyn, every week you would see the green fences wrapping around buildings, Art Deco type warehouses, Victorian houses, for them to be torn down and replaced by “luxury” condos...but this is just my opinion...
I don’t think you’re confused, I think you expect others’ to subscribe to the same views as you. What other people do doesn’t have to make sense to you. I’ve noticed some people in the Bronx are congratulatory to anybody who leaves the neighborhood to go to the suburbs, yet if they go to Brooklyn, then it’s an issue. If Flatbush and the surrounding areas were so bad, people would be leaving by choice instead of staying or moving in. It also sounds like you can’t reconcile that you can both hold the police accountable and expect them to do their jobs. These sound like your hang ups. Different strokes for different folks. You live your life, I’ll live mine, ok?
I don’t think you’re confused, I think you expect others’ to subscribe to the same views as you. What other people do doesn’t have to make sense to you. I’ve noticed some people in the Bronx are congratulatory to anybody who leaves the neighborhood to go to the suburbs, yet if they go to Brooklyn, then it’s an issue. If Flatbush and the surrounding areas were so bad, people would be leaving by choice instead of staying or moving in. It also sounds like you can’t reconcile that you can both hold the police accountable and expect them to do their jobs. These sound like your hang ups. Different strokes for different folks. You live your life, I’ll live mine, ok?
I was just highlighting some contradictions, which you conveniently didn’t address. People move to Flatbush because there is a wave of gentrification (white suburbans from out of State as well as educated black suburban from out of State). Like this girl from Wisconsin told me once after moving to Flatbush “before there was nothing, now we have organic stores and cool bars”. This is why some people move but this doesn’t erase the high crime, and they move close to Prospect Park. They don’t go too deep until the next luxury condo is built (for a person who is against overdevelopment I have to reiterate, you will not be happy in constantly renovated Brooklyn). For someone who mentioned both increasing crime and constant development, you have it all in Flatbush.
And knowing people in Flatbush when they can move by choice they do...
I am (not that) surprised at your reaction, when I was just amicably asking questions about contradictions, however instead of addressing them you decided to go ballistic. And that’s the issue nowadays, you can no longer have a debate and as soon as your interlocutors feel disarmed or embarrassed and do not have the logic to their own contradiction they snap... and call you names... so sad, well good luck to you if you ever move to Flatbush, and if you start noticing that crime is actually worse than where you currently are, just remember what Yodel and I wrote here.
Good luck and merry Christmas.
Last edited by Robert.Dinero; 12-24-2020 at 06:14 PM..
However BxGyrl, where I am confused is, you say you could consider leaving the neighborhood due to increasing crime, and cars being broken into and all and all... then you also said new developments are welcoming homeless people, low income, etc... then you said the actual reason why you would move out is excessive development... so I am confused, are you tempted to leave due to crime or overdevelopment? These new development (a tiny percentage of BP) would replace blocks that are fully abandoned, real estate prices went up at the very least 25% over the past 5 years, and new development usually means a mix of market rate and affordable housing (you know affordable housing requiring 75K a year).
You also said you distrust NYPD’s numbers due to their harassment of blacks and Hispanics, yet you and/or your husband did not hesitate to report cars that were broken into, even though they’re not yours.... quite confusing I have to say.
I am really confused... then like Yodel said, you mention moving to Flatbush... And just like Yodel said, you may find worse than what you would get away from. I used to live in Brooklyn, I worked with the social services, I was also a livery cab driver (night shift on top of that), my base was in Bed Stuy where I used to reside, and every single night it was the usual circuit between Bed Stuy, Crown Heights, Brownsville, East NY, Flatbush, East Flatbush (for both jobs).....if you’re tired of shooting, gang activity or drug dealing, turf wars between local gangs, my advice is do NOT move to Flatbush. Unless you can afford the Ditmas Park sub section, but it is not for every budget.
You also mentioned Canarsie.... very confusing as well, a few blocks are decent, the rest of it is isolated, boring, food is crap, lots of gangs, lots of shootings, lots of drugs, especially by the Belt Parkway, the last stop on the L train, and the border with East NY by the Breukelyn Houses....
For the same budget you could get a nice place in Yonkers, Downtown New Rochelle, or Pelham Bay...
Also, if seeing old original buildings being demolished bother you so much , you will be upset every day in Brooklyn, especially Flatbush as of now. They have been razing and erasing block after block after block. When I lived in Brooklyn, every week you would see the green fences wrapping around buildings, Art Deco type warehouses, Victorian houses, for them to be torn down and replaced by “luxury” condos...but this is just my opinion...
Yeah again that's specifically the complaint I heard about Flatbush on here. We really need to do a better job here of protecting historic architecture. Landmarking is great but too limited. Even though I tend to hate new construction, sometimes I end up thinking it's not so bad afterall. When I went to St. George's Crescent, which is a tiny street in the NW part of Bedford Park, I couldn't tell where I was but in that case, it was an improvement because there used to be a huge empty lot there. (Spoiler, it was also years between visits.) I will hold out hope that 202 and 203 Street will be OK too when construction is finished.
Yeah again that's specifically the complaint I heard about Flatbush on here. We really need to do a better job here of protecting historic architecture. Landmarking is great but too limited. Even though I tend to hate new construction, sometimes I end up thinking it's not so bad afterall. When I went to St. George's Crescent, which is a tiny street in the NW part of Bedford Park, I couldn't tell where I was but in that case, it was an improvement because there used to be a huge empty lot there. (Spoiler, it was also years between visits.) I will hold out hope that 202 and 203 Street will be OK too when construction is finished.
Absolutely, some buildings or blocks need to go, because they have never been maintained.
But in the case of Brooklyn, it started off with buildings on vacant lots or replacing decay buildings, and it then went out of control. Downtown Brooklyn during and after the Barclays center for most buildings, demolishing was unnecessary, the only necessity was to build higher to rent and sell more.
Just like Williamsburg in the early days, and it spilled into Bed Stuy and Crown Heights, first the Western areas then further East. Same for Bushwick. And Now Flatbush.
When I lived in Brooklyn I remember being pissed off seeing decent buildings being wrapped with green fences with the sign saying “demolition “, I was like “why? Why do you need to demolish this beautiful historical building, knowing what’s going to go up instead?” A lot of “accidental” fires happened too.
Downtown Brooklyn, Williamsburg, parts of Bed Stuy and Crown Heights and now Flatbush and Gowanus, and to a lesser extent Sunset Park are unrecognizable.
Absolutely, some buildings or blocks need to go, because they have never been maintained.
But in the case of Brooklyn, it started off with buildings on vacant lots or replacing decay buildings, and it then went out of control. Downtown Brooklyn during and after the Barclays center for most buildings, demolishing was unnecessary, the only necessity was to build higher to rent and sell more.
Just like Williamsburg in the early days, and it spilled into Bed Stuy and Crown Heights, first the Western areas then further East. Same for Bushwick. And Now Flatbush.
When I lived in Brooklyn I remember being pissed off seeing decent buildings being wrapped with green fences with the sign saying “demolition “, I was like “why? Why do you need to demolish this beautiful historical building, knowing what’s going to go up instead?” A lot of “accidental” fires happened too.
Downtown Brooklyn, Williamsburg, parts of Bed Stuy and Crown Heights and now Flatbush and Gowanus, and to a lesser extent Sunset Park are unrecognizable.
It's a crime and it's all about making a buck. For a long time this part of the Bronx was off the radar at least. I'm hoping one good thing to come out of the pandemic will be less development pressure.
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