Most WASP suburbs of New York City? (Rye, Garden City: schools, universities)
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So? If a suburb is affluent and is predominatly Jewish - it is obviously can't be called a "WASP suburb." Since there are very few white working class Protestants in the New York area - the "some trailer park in Alabama or small town in upstate NY has a higher percentage with British ancestry than Bronxville or Rye" argument is a red herring.
I've never stated the Jewish suburb would be called "WASP", but merely showing a flaw in your "more English=more affluent" theory since in the NY area one can also make statements such as "more white=more affluent" and "more Jews=more affluent" and heck in certain elite buildings of Manhattan (e.g. 57th st AKA Billionaires row), you can also say "more Chinese=more affluent".
I've yet to see any evidence that shows people who identify as "American" are primarily of British ancestry. I would submit many probably have some British in them, but most are probably of mixed European ethnicities just like most white people in the US.
The trailer park argument is not a red herring at all if you argue that labeling something as WASP is more than just about ethnicity. It's about a culture and atmosphere which tends to be upper class and yes includes a lot of white protestants of many different origins.
I've never stated the Jewish suburb would be called "WASP", but merely showing a flaw in your "more English=more affluent" theory since in the NY area one can also make statements such as "more white=more affluent" and "more Jews=more affluent" and heck in certain elite buildings of Manhattan (e.g. 57th st AKA Billionaires row), you can also say "more Chinese=more affluent".
But I never said "more English, more affluent." I said every concentration of English ancestry I could find in the NY metro was in an affluent area. Thus most people of English ancestry in the area meet the definition of WASP if it's supposed to exclude working class white Protestants (of which there are very, very few in the NYC area).
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I've yet to see any evidence that shows people who identify as "American" are primarily of British ancestry. I would submit many probably have some British in them, but most are probably of mixed European ethnicities just like most white people in the US.
Look at the 1980 census, when 50 million Americans reported English ancestry. It dropped off heavily after that. The places that had high English ancestry in 1980 are the same areas that swung heavily to "American" responses. In contrast German ancestry has remained pretty stable over time.
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The trailer park argument is not a red herring at all if you argue that labeling something as WASP is more than just about ethnicity. It's about a culture and atmosphere which tends to be upper class and yes includes a lot of white protestants of many different origins.
Many different NW European Protestants origins, yes - also Scottish, perhaps colonial Dutch or French Huguenots, some German etc.
I would think very few (if any) people of Italian ancestry would consider themselves a WASP - even if they're converts to Protestantism.
Not a significant amount for sure but they exist. I know for sure that there is one of the largest Jewish communities in Birmingham in the south. But the white population is predominantly of English heritage.
The white population of the South is mixed. The French and Spanish were there first. Then the English came. And believe it or not, though not to the extent of the industrialized Northern cities, some European immigrants came to the South. And since the 70s a good number of white Northerners have moved to certain parts of the South.
So I don't think there's much in the way of proof that the White population is predominately of English heritage.
But I never said "more English, more affluent." I said every concentration of English ancestry I could find in the NY metro was in an affluent area. Thus most people of English ancestry in the area meet the definition of WASP if it's supposed to exclude working class white Protestants (of which there are very, very few in the NYC area).
Look at the 1980 census, when 50 million Americans reported English ancestry. It dropped off heavily after that. The places that had high English ancestry in 1980 are the same areas that swung heavily to "American" responses. In contrast German ancestry has remained pretty stable over time.
Many different NW European Protestants origins, yes - also Scottish, perhaps colonial Dutch or French Huguenots, some German etc.
I would think very few (if any) people of Italian ancestry would consider themselves a WASP - even if they're converts to Protestantism.
Italians have been known to marry Protestants, and ditto for Jews.
And yes some Italians are Protestants.
Which brings up another problem. Much of any data on race and ethnicity is self reported. People don't necessarily tell the full truth, and the forms don't really allow for a full accounting of one's family history.
You still have not posted any links from any sources demonstrating that wealthier suburbs in NYC have higher concentrations of "WASPS" than suburbs that are poorer.
For that matter, how do you know there are few working class white protestants in NYC. There are some pretty big Anglican and other protestant churches in the area. Do you have a breakdown of the White protestant population of NYC by income?
You still have not posted any links from any sources demonstrating that wealthier suburbs in NYC have higher concentrations of "WASPS" than suburbs that are poorer.
Learn to use the factfinder then and get back to us. I challenge you to find a more modest suburb that approaches Rye or even Bronxville.
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For that matter, how do you know there are few working class white protestants in NYC. There are some pretty big Anglican and other protestant churches in the area. Do you have a breakdown of the White protestant population of NYC by income?
Here's some figures just for NYC for ancestry groups. People of English ancestry are at the top for educational attainment and per capita income. Russian ancestry (mostly Jewish) are also well above average for NHWs, Irish a bit above. Italian Americans still have a significant working class component. This pattern - or relative ranking - is likely the same in the suburbs.
If you don't think WASPs even exist in any form (Jeb Bush married a Catholic! Many Italians are Protestant! Lots of Jews intermarry! People aren't telling the truth about their ancestry!) - what's the point?
Last edited by King of Kensington; 02-15-2015 at 04:54 PM..
I dont really focus on Wasps to much but other ethnic white groups do try to replicate the elitist Wasp cultural in many ways shapes and form thanks to higher education and I mean higher education like Harvard for example. Ivy leagues schools to a certain degree are culturally very Waspy even though plenty of Jews and Asians attend these schools. I was told by my father that the Anglican church is the best church. I asked him why? He said that's the church with the most money in America and not the Catholic church. Plenty of Wasps run the government and control financial institutions and make up most billionaires in the country such as Bill Gates, or Warren Buffet. Jews come in 2nd after Wasps, but both Wasps and Jews share a similar work ethic, than lets say Catholics and those of Southern European extract. I'm not sure what suburbs of NYC that is heavily Wasp besides Bronxville, but many others do try to replicate the Wasp culture regardless of ethnicity, race or even faith, "trying to keep up with the Jones". As for NYC, take a walk up and down the UES and look at the ornate Protestant churches and a couple of Jewish synagogues in the area and be amazed at how much wealth is concentrated in the UES.
Last edited by Bronxguyanese; 02-15-2015 at 05:49 PM..
But I never said "more English, more affluent." I said every concentration of English ancestry I could find in the NY metro was in an affluent area. Thus most people of English ancestry in the area meet the definition of WASP if it's supposed to exclude working class white Protestants (of which there are very, very few in the NYC area).
Look at the 1980 census, when 50 million Americans reported English ancestry. It dropped off heavily after that. The places that had high English ancestry in 1980 are the same areas that swung heavily to "American" responses. In contrast German ancestry has remained pretty stable over time.
Many different NW European Protestants origins, yes - also Scottish, perhaps colonial Dutch or French Huguenots, some German etc.
I would think very few (if any) people of Italian ancestry would consider themselves a WASP - even if they're converts to Protestantism.
I agree with this too. I do not know of any Italian who has consider themselves Wasp. The only way if an Italian or other type of white ethnic to become a Wasp if they either convert to protestant or even attend an Ivy League college that has foundations in Wasp culture like Harvard or Yale. An Italian American may have to do go through plenty of Anglicization to become a Wasp. At times I even think a black person can more likely be a Wasp than lets say an Italian because a black persons are mainly protestant and if correctly brought up in protestants foundation of a hard work ethic. To me a Wasp is someone from the edge of Northwest Europe except the Catholic Irish and Scotts. Anglo American, Dutch Americans and German Americans make up the bulk of the Wasp culture and identity here.
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Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
The white population of the South is mixed. The French and Spanish were there first. Then the English came. And believe it or not, though not to the extent of the industrialized Northern cities, some European immigrants came to the South. And since the 70s a good number of white Northerners have moved to certain parts of the South.
So I don't think there's much in the way of proof that the White population is predominately of English heritage.
This is very true. The South white population is mixed. The French and Spanish mainly live in Florida, Alabama and in Louisiana. Also French and Spanish culture are very similar especially when it comes to faith being Catholic, language being Romance and also being Mediterranean such as cuisine like wine olive oil etc. It was very common for French and Spanish to mix, also it was very common for French and Spanish to even take indigenous and African Slaves as wives and have offspring's with them. Parts of the South are indeed very mixed. Anglo Saxon culture grew in the deep South after Florida was ceded to the USA, and the French Emperor Napoleon selling Spanish owned and Controlled Louisiana purchase to Thomas Jefferson in 1803. The South is Very mixed and I came across Southerners with mixed Spanish and French heritage.
Learn to use the factfinder then and get back to us. I challenge you to find a more modest suburb that approaches Rye or even Bronxville.
Here's some figures just for NYC for ancestry groups. People of English ancestry are at the top for educational attainment and per capita income. Russian ancestry (mostly Jewish) are also well above average for NHWs, Irish a bit above. Italian Americans still have a significant working class component. This pattern - or relative ranking - is likely the same in the suburbs.
If you don't think WASPs even exist in any form (Jeb Bush married a Catholic! Many Italians are Protestant! Lots of Jews intermarry! People aren't telling the truth about their ancestry!) - what's the point?
There isn't ANY point, and that is exactly my point.
You made a ridiculous claim that English people came to the US and somehow made themselves ethnically pure. This is complete nonsense, white ethnic groups intermarry at high rates which is why many whites just refer to themselves as American or white because they have multiple groups in their ancestries.
Lots of Jews do intermarry.
"First, intermarriage is practically nonexistent among Orthodox Jews; 98% of the married Orthodox Jews in the survey have a Jewish spouse. But among all other married Jews, only half say they have a Jewish spouse.
In addition, intermarriage rates appear to have risen substantially in recent decades, though they have been relatively stable since the mid-1990s. Looking just at non-Orthodox Jews who have gotten married since 2000, 28% have a Jewish spouse and fully 72% are intermarried."
Any White American whose family has lived in the states long is likely to be multiethnic.
According to Wikipedia,
"The ten largest ancestries of American Whites are: German Americans (16.5%), Irish Americans (11.9%), English Americans (9.2%), Italian Americans (5.5%), Mexican Americans (5.4%), French Americans (4%), Polish Americans (3%), Scottish Americans (1.9%), Dutch Americans (1.6%), and Norwegian Americans (1.5%)."
People of English descent are not even the biggest ethnic group among whites, as last self identified via the census.
I agree with this too. I do not know of any Italian who has consider themselves Wasp. The only way if an Italian or other type of white ethnic to become a Wasp if they either convert to protestant or even attend an Ivy League college that has foundations in Wasp culture like Harvard or Yale. An Italian American may have to do go through plenty of Anglicization to become a Wasp. At times I even think a black person can more likely be a Wasp than lets say an Italian because a black persons are mainly protestant and if correctly brought up in protestants foundation of a hard work ethic. To me a Wasp is someone from the edge of Northwest Europe except the Catholic Irish and Scotts. Anglo American, Dutch Americans and German Americans make up the bulk of the Wasp culture and identity here.
This is very true. The South white population is mixed. The French and Spanish mainly live in Florida, Alabama and in Louisiana. Also French and Spanish culture are very similar especially when it comes to faith being Catholic, language being Romance and also being Mediterranean such as cuisine like wine olive oil etc. It was very common for French and Spanish to mix, also it was very common for French and Spanish to even take indigenous and African Slaves as wives and have offspring's with them. Parts of the South are indeed very mixed. Anglo Saxon culture grew in the deep South after Florida was ceded to the USA, and the French Emperor Napoleon selling Spanish owned and Controlled Louisiana purchase to Thomas Jefferson in 1803. The South is Very mixed and I came across Southerners with mixed Spanish and French heritage.
Of course Italians do convert to Protestantism and some of them even MARRY non Italians.
People closely identifying as Polish, Italian, etc are second generation Americans. Anyone here substantially longer would be a mix of ethnic groups and less likely to be able to call themselves any one ethnicity. And if they've been living here long enough they generally don't care too.
I don't here the Kennedy's calling themselves Irish, and Maria Shriver even married Schwarznegger, a German/Austrian dude. Established white families are like this, multiethnic.
I agree with this too. I do not know of any Italian who has consider themselves Wasp. The only way if an Italian or other type of white ethnic to become a Wasp if they either convert to protestant or even attend an Ivy League college that has foundations in Wasp culture like Harvard or Yale. An Italian American may have to do go through plenty of Anglicization to become a Wasp. At times I even think a black person can more likely be a Wasp than lets say an Italian because a black persons are mainly protestant and if correctly brought up in protestants foundation of a hard work ethic. To me a Wasp is someone from the edge of Northwest Europe except the Catholic Irish and Scotts. Anglo American, Dutch Americans and German Americans make up the bulk of the Wasp culture and identity here.
Blacks are not mainly protestant, and not necessarily even Black Americans.
I'm not convinced most Blacks in urban areas are church attending. I'm not saying they are atheist, but brought up as Protestant? Nah, not true.
Lastly in places like NYC where the majority of Blacks are not necessarily African American, you will find plenty of Black Muslims, Catholics, practitioners of African based religions, and other religions. You even have African American practitioners of all those religions. But at least in urban areas, I seriously doubt any population of Blacks has a majority that REGULARLY attends service.
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