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I don't know if I'm following you correctly, wouldn't this be considered segregation? Didn't we go through riots in the 1960's because of this?
If you follow this logic, then areas like Bushwick, Kingsbridge, Ridgewood, Rosedale, Inwood etc, would still be 80% white... Irish, Italian, German, Polish? Where would all of the Black & Hispanic people live?
What makes this any better than the current system we have in place? Make everything luxury/high price with a couple of affordable apartments sprinkled in (Harlem) or everything low income (Bronx). I just feel when you are rehabilitating a neighborhood their should be excitement from the people that live there not fear. Is my system flawed? Of course, but take your pick race or class somebody is being discriminated on regardless. I guess I would call my system damage control, but I respect your perspective as well.
I thought about this the other day and maybe there others might share my sentiment or at least have an opinion. Do you think New York should have a housing preference in regards to race when rebuilding a community instead of income? I can honestly say I don't really concern myself with the lower class because I feel everyone has an opportunity to at least make it to the middle class (upper is a different story). Harlem is changing and it honestly doesn't bother me that rich folks are moving in, but why not we have a racial preference when we rebuild a community that is known to have a particular ethnic group. For example make 80% percent of the new buildings in Harlem occupied by African Americans. I wouldn't mind if Harlem became a place for rich folks. I actually think it would be cool and uplifting if it was thought of as a place rich black folks live. It feels like NYC uses people to build a community and then moves them out for the rich (usually white) people. Do you feel my solution would be fair/effective?
This isn't always the case--for example the artists who built up formerly industrial areas of NYC (SoHo, Tribeca, DUMBO, LIC, etc). They got priced out too. Gentrified areas eventually become to expensive for middle class to afford, and then upper middle class move in, etc. Greed is not discriminatory--everyone is vulnerable.
I also don't think everyone has the ability to make it to the middle class. I think people tend to identify with their own class the most, but IMO it's just as callous for middle class folks to denigrate all poor people as for the rich to denigrate anyone below them. There is a large working poor/working class contingent in certain areas who may not be able to make it to the next level. Generally poor immigrants in NYC strive for their children to make it to the middle class. It was that way when my grandmother came to the Lower East Side in the early 1900s, and it's still that way today.
Harlem has a very long history and was originally a very wealthy white area. In the early-ish 20th century it became a mecca for black culture and pride, but it was still an era of legal discrimination and segregation (before the civil rights act and even after).
The city's demographics change back and forth, but the one constant seems to be a lot of racial segregation, and IMO it feeds on itself. The less exposure one has to living among other cultures, the more negative stereotyping is likely to prevail.
Someone on this forum mentioned Singapore? I think where 80 percent of people live in city-owned housing, and it's no shame--this is their solution to providing affordable housing to all. They also make sure that there is a racial mix/quota to prevent self segregation. But here, the best that can be done is to build mixed income units, which is being done in some cases.
There are substantial instances in this city when poor people live in sub standard housing and the landlord completely neglects the building. Then when the market goes up, they intimidate the residents until they move by not supplying essential services (heat, hot water, fixing gaping holes which lead to rat infestations, major leaks, broken elevators, etc). and threatening eviction. The Pinnacle Group's tactics have been very controversial for example.
Realtors in the past practiced "red lining" to segregate neighborhoods. Today many people see a minority neighborhood and are scared senseless or think it is too "low class" for their liking. People are so separated from the poor--many who live in housing projects or "ghetto" neighborhoods--and the competition for housing is so fierce that most people do not concern themselves with some of the ruthless tactics realtors and developers routinely practice.
If a building or community is run down, people tend to look at the surface and think it is all the resident's own fault. But poor people are not to blame if landlords are unscrupulous and neglect their property. If the city does not provide essential services to an area, then it will be run down regardless of what residents do.
I think that there is still a lot of racism in NYC, though there are some truly diverse areas like Jackson Heights, Queens.
If rich black people want to live in Harlem, great. But to suggest that ONLY (or mainly) rich black people should live there is not only racist and simplistic, but also unattainable. So...all the apts. get fixed up by someone, one by one, in hopes that black people will buy them. In the meantime...some go empty b/c only white people want them and...they can't have them. You can't force an area to become the racial mix you want...change is permanent as they say. Should only those with German heritage be allowed to buy on the upper East side?
What to do about those darned multi-racial families too....sorry, your wife is white so no room for you in this inn....or those black people who are light skinned or only 1/4 black...should they be allowed in? Or wouldn't they be "black enough"?
BTW, it's ridiculous to suggest that everyone can attain middle class status. Don't even get me started on that.
Good points--I agree. And not only can't many attain middle class status--but middle class status by NYC standards is well out of the reach of a lot of "middle class" people elsewhere.
It is not a crime to be poor!!! What about those who lied, cheated, and stole their way to their wealth?
If rich black people want to live in Harlem, great. But to suggest that ONLY (or mainly) rich black people should live there is not only racist and simplistic, but also unattainable. So...all the apts. get fixed up by someone, one by one, in hopes that black people will buy them. In the meantime...some go empty b/c only white people want them and...they can't have them. You can't force an area to become the racial mix you want...change is permanent as they say. Should only those with German heritage be allowed to buy on the upper East side?
What to do about those darned multi-racial families too....sorry, your wife is white so no room for you in this inn....or those black people who are light skinned or only 1/4 black...should they be allowed in? Or wouldn't they be "black enough"?
BTW, it's ridiculous to suggest that everyone can attain middle class status. Don't even get me started on that.
I would like for you to explain to me how it is unattainable for rich black folks to occupy a building (It happens with white people everywhere south of Harlem). Please do so! I don't like what I am getting from that statement. I also didn't say I want Harlem to be a place for rich black folks because I am far, far from rich. I said I wouldn't mind if I did.
I didn't say my system is perfect (this is not something I do for a living), but I'm sure if it was my system I would include interacial relationships and people who are 1/4 black as society considers them black anyway.
I don't know how i'm being racist. 80% is still a change. I don't have any proof, but growing up on the west side of Harlem it was at least 90% black.
If someone can't realistically attain middle class status somewhere that is your sign to move. If you want to be stubborn and stay thats on you. I was making 29,000 dollars a year (with a bachelors degree) in New York and I make 37,500 in VIRGINIA. When someone offers me a middle class salary in New York then me and New York can do business. That is called putting things in perspective and being realistic with yourself. If many more people in New York try it New York will be a better place.
But 37,500 is still not "middle class" by today's NYC standards. Are you living a middle class life in Virginia? Do you live in a solid middle class community there and enjoy all the benefits of middle class life? Do you anticipate being able to own your home, rather than rent forever? If you do, then I can understand why you moved.
If many more people in NY try it NY will be a better place (your quote)...try what? Moving out? If I were a minority in NYC, and anyone told me to move out, I would consider that statement an affront. I consider it an affront anyway.
There are a lot of outside forces which lead to poor ghettos--racial discrimination, speculation, greed, economic downturns, poor urban planning, city abandonment (of essential services, etc). It is not as black and white--no pun intended--as most people seem to believe.
We are also now in a post-industrial era, and a lot of our service and other economies are being outsourced to other countries. Businesses employ illegal immigants, depriving citizens of these jobs. These and other factors have led to a shrinking of the middle class of all colors. Trying to attain or maintain a middle class way of life is more difficult than ever for many people. The American dream of homeownership has become a nightmare for many, especially those who bought the mortgage scams and are now going into foreclosure because they bought more house than they could afford in their rush to become "middle class."
The long history of real estate scamming and "city planning" is not well known. It has helped create and maintain much of the racial discrimination and segregation that is still rampant even in the new milennium. But much of it has to do with individuals, and their utter terror of anyone not just like them.
There has and always will be middle class minorities. Some of the long time homeowners of the beautiful brownstones in Brooklyn and Manhattan are black. I now live in a Bronx coop that is predominantly black middle class. It is considered a model coop development. The residents are like middle class anywhere else. And it is extremely affordable. But many turn their noses up at it simply because it is a minority community.
I see the poor minorities in my area (Hispanic, black, etc) trudging off to work on the subways every day, just like everyone else. People of all races are struggling to come to terms with cost of living in NYC and all over the nation. It is harder to climb from poor to middle class today, but again, many strive to ensure that their children will attain it even if they cannot. There are a fair number of parochial schools in this area, and people somehow manage to cobble enough together to send their kids to a decent school which is an essential stepping stone to a better, more prosperous life.
My hope and belief is that the Bronx will maintain true diversity. I live a modest middle class life here (though maybe not by others' definitions of it), and I respect the community which is predominantly working class, predominantly hard working and decent--and, yes, predominantly non white.
The problem in modern day NYC is that non-middle class white people initially move into a minority community because it is cheaper. But soon others "discover" it now that they see it is "becoming safer and better," and as more whites move in, the old residents are often pushed out and priced out. Soon only the wealthier can afford to live there. Then it becomes yet another white upper class ghetto, as old housing is razed and luxe condos and coops spring up. As the area becomes more white, more and more whites rush in, and realtors can and do demand top dollar in areas once considered beyond the pale.
If you see a neighborhood of color and automatically judge it to be a slum and a ghetto, what chance is there for any of the middle class to get a foothold in this city? The only way is to stake a claim and buy into an affordable area before it gets too expensive for all but the wealthy to afford. Time after time on this forum I've seen people call areas a dump, and they don't seem to see that in the last few decades a vast majority of run down neighborhoods have become gentrified to such a degree that no one of any color who does not make much more than a typical middle class person cannot afford to live there.
Middle class housing is being phased out--Mitchell Lama and other programs are becoming a thing of the past. Yet another socioeconomic force that is "bigger than all of us." No individual or ethnic group can be blamed for that. Things are not what they seem on the surface--not by a long shot.
[quote=Elvira Black;1648703]But 37,500 is still not "middle class" by today's NYC standards. Are you living a middle class life in Virginia? Do you live in a solid middle class community there and enjoy all the benefits of middle class life? Do you anticipate being able to own your home, rather than rent forever? If you do, then I can understand why you moved.
I don't understand you comparing my salary by New York middle class standards because I don't live there, but as for your questions.....Yes my salary is middle class for one person in VIRGINIA, neighborhood nice and middle class life with benefits yup. I am at the beginning of my career at age 24 and my goal is to have a house before my 31st birthday. I expect to be doing bigger things by then and I expect to be making at least $80,000 per year by that time in the New York area, thus sacrifices must be made.
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