Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
From my experience, cops see the very worst of any area, and their viewpoint can make any neighborhood sound dangerous. Rural locations can sound unbelievable when talking to attorneys and law-related types. I am far from the first person similar to myself to move into this area, I just don't know the range of their experiences with the neighborhood. I may have to move, but I'd like to understand whether I am dealing with exaggerations and false perceptions or real basis for believing the area is unpredictably dangerous.
From my experience, cops see the very worst of any area, and their viewpoint can make any neighborhood sound dangerous. Rural locations can sound unbelievable when talking to attorneys and law-related types. I am far from the first person similar to myself to move into this area, I just don't know the range of their experiences with the neighborhood. I may have to move, but I'd like to understand whether I am dealing with exaggerations and false perceptions or real basis for believing the area is unpredictably dangerous.
Well, have you talked to your neighbors? Your building superintendant? Workers in local stores you patronize?
I don't know who better to tell you than the police. I don't think there is any point in them lying or exaggerating. I also would not discount their perceptions as "false."
Of course, if you want "comfort" get on the phone with a real estate agent who represents the area. I am sure a person like that could cheer you up!
The thing about gentrification which I think many people fail to quite get is that it really is a process. It does not happen overnight, but in stages, in fits and starts, but always heading, if it's real, toward a neighborhood with a higher socio-economic level. In the beginning there are filthy bodegas and major league drug dealing and no middle class residents at all. In the middle there are better stores, more middle class residents, better municipal services, and changing crime pattern that sees more robbery and property crimes, commensurate with more middle class residents. And at the end, you bsically see upscale retail, strong local schools, few poor perople, littel violent crime, and uber expensive housing.
That section of Harlem OP speaks of is in this middle phase right now. With the econmy improving and NYC's housing shortage never to end it seems, the neighborhood will continue to improve. Anyone who has been around there over the long term -- like 20 or 30 years--knows what FDB used to be: the very definition of a bucket of blood. It was the only section of the city I was literally afraid to go to when I was growing up, it's rep wa so bad. Those who have been around a shorter time, however, may spend thier time complaining about the undesirables, the dysfunction that still exists, and fact that basically, Harlem isn't Park Slope yet.
That said, in this phase of the gentrification process, street crime will still happen and caution still needs to be taken. There will still be robberies, and I've certainly seen low level dealing in the side streets off of FDB. But shootings and major crime incidents WILL fall over time -- and have been doing so. Even the shootings. Check out the numbers for the 23rd precinct. http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloa...s/cs023pct.pdf.
(And yes I know there are many on C-D who will whine about NYPDs numbers. But the trend in those numbers cannot IMHO be argued away.)
As to the summer time, it will be a mixed bag. More undesirables on the street? Perhaps. But there are a goodly number of people around in and outside of the late night eateries, many of which have sidewalk cafes like the sports bar at 116th. There will be plenty of middle class and new residents strolling and shopping as there have been in recent past years.
I'm sorry you got robbed for sure. But I don't neccessarily think that that one unfortunate experience is a definitive indicator of what the neighborhood is now or what it will become in the next few years. Day to day you are not living in a war zone or running a gauntlet or armed thugs to get a gallon of milk or go to the subway. If it were that bad none of the new residents or businesses would be there.
And as to the cops' warning, listen and pay attention. But take it with a grain of salt: If all you're looking for is bad guys, then that's likely all you'll see.
Last edited by citylove101; 03-07-2013 at 01:39 PM..
The thing about gentrification which I think many people fail to quite get is that it really is a process. It does not happen overnight, but in stages, in fits and starts, but always heading, if it's real, toward a neighborhood with a higher socio-economic level. In the beginning there are filthy bodegas and major league drug dealing and no middle class residents at all. In the middle there are better stores, more middle class residents, better municipal services, and changing crime pattern that sees more robbery and property crimes, commensurate with more middle class residents. And at the end, you bsically see upscale retail, strong local schools, few poor perople, littel violent crime, and uber expensive housing.
That section of Harlem OP speaks of is in this middle phase right now. With the econmy improving and NYC's housing shortage never to end it seems, the neighborhood will continue to improve. Anyone who has been around there over the long term -- like 20 or 30 years--knows what FDB used to be: the very definition of a bucket of blood. Those who have been around a shorter time, however, may spend thier time complaining about the undesirables, the dysfunction that still exists, and fact that basically, Harlem isn't Park Slope yet.
That said, in this phase of the gentrification process, street crime will still happen and caution still needs to be taken. There will still be robberies, and I've certainly seen low level dealing in the side streets off of FDB. But shootings and major crime incidents WILL fall over time -- and have been doing so. Even the shootings. Check out the numbers for the 23rd precinct. http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloa...s/cs023pct.pdf.
(And yes I know there are many on C-D who will whine about NYPDs numbers. But the trend in those numbers cannot IMHO be argued away.)
As to the summer time, it will be a mixed bag. More undesirables on the street? Perhaps. But there are a goodly number of people around in and outside of the late night eateries, many of which have sidewalk cafes like the sports bar at 116th. There will be plenty of middle class and new residents strolling and shopping as there have been in recent past years.
I'm sorry you got robbed for sure. But I don't neccessarily think that that one unfortunate experience is a definitive indicator of what the neighborhood is now or what it will become in the next few years. Day to day you are not living in a war zone or running a gauntlet or armed thugs to get a gallon of milk or go to the subway. If it were that bad none of the new residents or businesses would be there.
And as to the cops' warning, listen and pay attention. But take it with a grain of salt: If all you're looking for is bad guys, then that's likely all you'll see.
That said, in this phase of the gentrification process, street crime will still happen and caution still needs to be taken. There will still be robberies, and I've certainly seen low level dealing in the side streets off of FDB. But shootings and major crime incidents WILL fall over time -- and have been doing so. Even the shootings. Check out the numbers for the 23rd precinct. http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloa...s/cs023pct.pdf.
That section of Harlem OP speaks of is in this middle phase right now. With the econmy improving and NYC's housing shortage never to end it seems, the neighborhood will continue to improve. Anyone who has been around there over the long term -- like 20 or 30 years--knows what FDB used to be: the very definition of a bucket of blood. It was the only section of the city I was literally afraid to go to when I was growing up, it's rep wa so bad. Those who have been around a shorter time, however, may spend thier time complaining about the undesirables, the dysfunction that still exists, and fact that basically, Harlem isn't Park Slope yet.
This is a true statement of what the area is like and what it has been like for probably the last 20 -30 years and it probably won't change too much. There are shelters and other services for the homeless. Some of these types are more easily identifiable, especially those with mental health issues. It has also always been more racially mixed than other areas of Harlem for a longer period of time because of its close proximity to Columbia University and the UWS.
It has always even in it's worse days been the place that the upper middle class that live below 110th and above the park could come and buy drugs. So as a result criminals in the area come in all colors, and many speak well, and basically don't fit the criminal stereotype. Many people have been robbed by this type. Many apt invasions by this type gaining access to a building, and then people opening their door to answer a question. Do not answer your door or let someone in your building that you do not know, even if they appear to be well mannered and well spoken.
There was a movement a few years ago by some newer residents to stop the park (Morningside) from being enjoyed by the residents of the community for everyday use. They didn't want people coming to the soccer, basketball, baseball games etc BBQing and enjoying themselves while they watched the games which had become a long standing tradition, after the residents that had lived in the area for so long had fought so hard to clean up the area, and got their park back.
the wealthier residents on top of the hill overlooking the park couldn't enjoy it either. But once the residents at the bottom of the hill cleaned it up, they could enjoy it as well.
During the movement to end the fun for the long-term residents the newer residents started realizing that without people out enjoying the park, criminals would sit on the benches and look down the blocks to 8th Ave (FDB) and Manhattan Ave and follow victims to rob. So the movement to end the fun slowed down. But there is still less use of the park in that way because they enforced the permit laws to BBQ and most families can't afford permits and pay for their children's sports activities.
There is subsidized housing in the area, senior housing, and a lot of rent stabilized housing, as well as luxury housing, and depending on what block you are on alot of brownstones, so it will always be a mixed bag over there. Just take the necessary precautions, and don't judge a book by its cover.
I recently moved to the FDB/Manhattan Ave area, south of 125th. I got robbed within a few days of moving to the area. Admittedly, I shouldn't have been out late, alone on a weekday night, but needed to get to a pharmacy before work the next morning. The concept of living in an area that has homeless addicts roaming the streets at night, looking to rob, is new to me. I've lived in the city for two years now and have apparently managed to stay fairly naive.
After the police report, the officer said that the area gets bad over the summer, citing random gunfire. Can anyone give a realistic description of how this could affect a couple who are roughly middle-class, trying to move between stores and transit, and would like to be able to go to the neighborhood's bars and restaurants? Is the gunfire actually random? The prospect of having to be constantly on guard, and potentially putting loved ones in harm's way, isn't very appealing.
Middle-class flight from Harlem in 2013 seems kind of ridiculous, and 100% in contradiction to all the gentrification talk, but if it really is dangerous in an unpredictable way, it may not make sense live here. Any perspective or thoughts would be appreciated.
You gave a realistic description in your first two paragraphs.
"Homeless addicts" will less often be your problem than the unsupervised and anti-social adolescents.
Not sure what you might mean by "middle-class flight from Harlem." The middle class has been priced out of every other area and they are moving IN, not fleeing.
Most people think that things will get worse before they change drastically. We did say that last summer would be the last really bad summer, but right now, any time the temperature moves a bit above freezing, the streets come alive. And it's not even spring yet.
This is a true statement of what the area is like and what it has been like for probably the last 20 -30 years and it probably won't change too much. There are shelters and other services for the homeless. Some of these types are more easily identifiable, especially those with mental health issues. It has also always been more racially mixed than other areas of Harlem for a longer period of time because of its close proximity to Columbia University and the UWS.
It has always even in it's worse days been the place that the upper middle class that live below 110th and above the park could come and buy drugs. So as a result criminals in the area come in all colors, and many speak well, and basically don't fit the criminal stereotype. Many people have been robbed by this type. Many apt invasions by this type gaining access to a building, and then people opening their door to answer a question. Do not answer your door or let someone in your building that you do not know, even if they appear to be well mannered and well spoken.
There was a movement a few years ago by some newer residents to stop the park (Morningside) from being enjoyed by the residents of the community for everyday use. They didn't want people coming to the soccer, basketball, baseball games etc BBQing and enjoying themselves while they watched the games which had become a long standing tradition, after the residents that had lived in the area for so long had fought so hard to clean up the area, and got their park back.
the wealthier residents on top of the hill overlooking the park couldn't enjoy it either. But once the residents at the bottom of the hill cleaned it up, they could enjoy it as well.
During the movement to end the fun for the long-term residents the newer residents started realizing that without people out enjoying the park, criminals would sit on the benches and look down the blocks to 8th Ave (FDB) and Manhattan Ave and follow victims to rob. So the movement to end the fun slowed down. But there is still less use of the park in that way because they enforced the permit laws to BBQ and most families can't afford permits and pay for their children's sports activities.
There is subsidized housing in the area, senior housing, and a lot of rent stabilized housing, as well as luxury housing, and depending on what block you are on alot of brownstones, so it will always be a mixed bag over there. Just take the necessary precautions, and don't judge a book by its cover.
Good advice! Who knew you also had to look out for "dirtbags that don't look like dirtbags."
Who do these new residents think they are? It's hard enough to have kids in the dense city without needing a permit to picnic and have a bit of fun in the park!
There was a movement a few years ago by some newer residents to stop the park (Morningside) from being enjoyed by the residents of the community for everyday use. They didn't want people coming to the soccer, basketball, baseball games etc BBQing and enjoying themselves while they watched the games which had become a long standing tradition, after the residents that had lived in the area for so long had fought so hard to clean up the area, and got their park back.
While I was not involved in curtailing the "fun," I do know something about the facts.
The "movement to end the fun" had an important impetus in the ... what shall we call them, arguments ? that inevitably broke out among the "fun-seekers," usually ending in violence.
A second impetus was the trash and garbage left by too many "fun seekers." Rotting meat, used diapers, barbecue coals dumped on the roots of very old trees and killing them - something people insisted upon doing in spite of the special containers left by the parks department. One of the park volunteer groups actually distributed garbage bags in an effort to help, and many "fun seekers" were belligerent and nasty at this effort.
"Fun seekers" refused to follow posted rules, setting up wherever they wanted and curtailing use for other people. The rules are in place to be sure that no single party infringes on others, and that none of them disturb people in the neighborhood who do not want to partake in the "fun." People insisted on blaring music far into the night, and their unsupervised children destroyed the trees and plants and bothered the geese and turtles. People using the park early in the morning, Sundays, had to deal with garbage everywhere. This is not fair to them; they have a right to use the park.
So it is not as simple as the above poster would like you to believe.
Good advice! Who knew you also had to look out for "dirtbags that don't look like dirtbags."
Who do these new residents think they are? It's hard enough to have kids in the dense city without needing a permit to picnic and have a bit of fun in the park!
Do not speak on that about which you know nothing (at all).
We agreed with the critics of the barbecue set and my significant other is a Harlem native. We are both natives of the city.
Moreover, I should add, I heard that most of the barbecue people don't even live around here - they come because Morningside Park is apparently one of the few places they can barbecue, and (also apparently) in order to take some sort of ridiculous stand.
Representative of the potentially deeply negative energy - the motor bike riders.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
