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My kid's private school has students who came from public schools. The #1 gripe of their parents is class size and overcrowding, not the unions. I'm not saying unions don't have faults, only that student population issues are a root cause of key problems among city schools. Once a certain school becomes popular, all kinds of people from the woodwork will try every trick in the book to get their kids in the school. Also the city encouraged rampant construction and conversion of new apartments with little regard to the ability of the nearby schools to absorb new students. Reduce class sizes and you will solve more than 50% of the problem before even dealing with unions.
I have seen parents rally against homework for their elementary school children because homework "deprives them play time and happy childhood".
Any comments about that?
I like diversity in thoughts and beliefs. But I can imagine children from these families will most likely not to help a school scoreboards and ranking. frankly, it is ok to let 50% students to learn just enough to function as a plumber or mailman etc, if their parents choose not to help maximize their potential. I have seen janitors who are quite smart but did not do well in school not because the school system is bad but rather they had no interest to exel in school.
I have seen parents rally against homework for their elementary school children because homework "deprives them play time and happy childhood".
Any comments about that?
In a culture that valorizes young people who wear flip flops to the White House, this should be expected.
Moreover, in my experience, this attitude evidences itself more prominently as one moves down the economic scale. Thus, the increasingly elitist tendencies of actual education.
Parents who fail to help their children maximize their potential are unfit. As well as too common, and increasingly so.
My kid's private school has students who came from public schools. The #1 gripe of their parents is class size and overcrowding, not the unions. I'm not saying unions don't have faults, only that student population issues are a root cause of key problems among city schools. Once a certain school becomes popular, all kinds of people from the woodwork will try every trick in the book to get their kids in the school. Also the city encouraged rampant construction and conversion of new apartments with little regard to the ability of the nearby schools to absorb new students. Reduce class sizes and you will solve more than 50% of the problem before even dealing with unions.
The overcrowding doesn't affect all school districts and zones. Once you get by that there's still the union problem. Teachers check out for the day at 2 pm. The kids could use one or two more hours in the school day so they can have more time for extra things to help developmentally instead of rushing and not having time to teach the exact boiler plate curriculum
ForestHillsDaddy...your argument is another diversionary tactic by the unions to keep things from changing. The public school system has been bad for 30+ years, long before the issue of overcrowding suddenly became a fashionable excuse. You will not solve 50% of the problems by reducing alleged overcrowding...and even if you did, the other 50%, which is the union, is the real problem which is systemic and won't change. I am not anti-union necessarily, however I do not believe they belong in the public sector (city agencies)...the union won't do anything that inconveniences itself or even marginally reduces its influence..which means nothing will change in the school system and exactly why Bloomberg has no other option but to close schools and reopen them. It is the only lever he has because the unions control all others...
ForestHillsDaddy...your argument is another diversionary tactic by the unions to keep things from changing. The public school system has been bad for 30+ years, long before the issue of overcrowding suddenly became a fashionable excuse. You will not solve 50% of the problems by reducing alleged overcrowding...and even if you did, the other 50%, which is the union, is the real problem which is systemic and won't change. I am not anti-union necessarily, however I do not believe they belong in the public sector (city agencies)...the union won't do anything that inconveniences itself or even marginally reduces its influence..which means nothing will change in the school system and exactly why Bloomberg has no other option but to close schools and reopen them. It is the only lever he has because the unions control all others...
Education is my primary career focus, and I completely agree.
And parents fail to criticize the unions, or many of them fail to, because they far too often lack the bigger picture.
There's one problem that people aren't addressing.
The quality of the students. A big portion of the city, especially in poor neighborhoods, have parents on public assistance or drugs. Or even if they are working class, the parents may not have high school degrees themselves, or if they do have high school degrees, they aren't really the types to value education and the college track.
I'm not going to say the teachers union is always right. Nothing is. But to expect teachers to miraculously turn uninterested students into kids on a Harvard track is just plain ridiculous. That's not teaching, that's divine intervention.
Private schools, where people pay for their education, also tend to have more motivated students because they have parents who are a lot more concerned about their education.
These days a young man unless he is exceptionally smart, is better off picking up a trade (getting in a union) than going to college for some non specific degree.
These days a young man unless he is exceptionally smart, is better off picking up a trade (getting in a union) than going to college for some non specific degree.
If that's true, then that throws the whole we must have this totally fantastic K-12 educational system. And there's a lot of truth in what you say.
ForestHillsDaddy...your argument is another diversionary tactic by the unions to keep things from changing. The public school system has been bad for 30+ years, long before the issue of overcrowding suddenly became a fashionable excuse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakeJones
The overcrowding doesn't affect all school districts and zones. Once you get by that there's still the union problem. Teachers check out for the day at 2 pm. The kids could use one or two more hours in the school day so they can have more time for extra things to help developmentally instead of rushing and not having time to teach the exact boiler plate curriculum
Sobroguy - It's not the teachers who are complaining about large class sizes. It's the parents. That is their argument. I actually have not heard them say anything to the effect of "those bad unionized teachers". It's more like their kids do not get enough attention in class because there are too many students, some of whom have too many issues.
Overcrowding does not affect all city schools, but it does affect most of them. Once you hit >20 students/class, it becomes hard for the teacher to manage whether or not she is part of the union. You will need really good teaching assistants to augment and those are also hard to come by. I don’t know a lot of non-charter schools that can promise class sizes of less than 20. And NYwriter is correct that the quality of the student body has an impact on class performance. The more students you get from more challenged families, the harder the teacher will have to work and the more smaller class sizes becomes a necessity so teachers can address learning needs of all students. To put it this way - Irvington, Ardsley, Briarcliff and Pleasantville all have unionized teachers but the residents in these areas overall are happy with the quality of teaching and the great job being done by their unionized teachers. Can we say that being part of a union is a problem in and of itself?
Last edited by Forest_Hills_Daddy; 07-05-2013 at 03:53 AM..
But you could still go to the grocery store and buy a soda. So basically, Bloomberg was harming the business of eateries, as those who want soda could just go to a grocery store, KMart, drug store, or similar places where the city had no power to limit the size of the soda.
That's why the courts through this ruling out. Fast food places, pizza places, movie theaters, etc argued that this unfairly penalized them while doing nothing to the many other sellers of large sodas (because the city has no authority to limit this).
Bloomberg is out of office now, and the fast food lobby is pretty powerful. This rule will never be enforced.
Lets not forget about the powerful alcohol and tabacco lobbyist too, these two will fight to death to keep their agenda afloat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy
Actually they didn't vote for C, it was that Thompson was a non-choice. He was a buffoon, and had no platform other than "Vote for me at least I am not Bloomberg!". If anyone marginally reasonable would have run, they would have won.
I don't know enough about Liu, so I will reserve my opinion. He is not getting nearly the press and hype as the other candidates, and that needs to change ASAP otherwise he will be out of sight, out of mind.
I agree, Thompson overall was not a great choice as a front runner for the democrats in the 2009 elections. I believe if Thompson had won he would have been an ultimate sellout towards the general public. Thompson would have to serve and knell the powers that be first before he does anything for the public. Unfortunately those that be who control power in this city and country wanted Bloomberg in as a 3rd term mayor and Thompson could not muster the support and funding of the well to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
Bloomberg said that his legacy should be based on the quality of education. Well it remains bad. Aside from about 10 high schools, how many upper middle class NYers will willingly send their kids to NY Public Schools, especially at the high school level?
Most NYer kids are not prepared for college levels, and many lack even basic skills that they will need to land a sustainable job. This was true in 2001 and remains true in 2013. So we can then say that Bloomie's legacy is a failure, given that he himself stated that it should be based on developing a decent educational system.
Bloomie started new schools replacing the infamous failures. He is now closing those schools down. Clearly Bloomberg has no idea how to improve the quality of education as the closure of schools which started under his watch indicates.
I have never heard of a constructive idea from Bloomberg about how NYC kids can be better prepared to compete. Have you? Setting easy tests and then boasting about how test scores have improved clearly inst the answer.
While the UFT are no saints if Bloomberg treats them as he treats iothers, which is to behave with Imperial Disdain, then why be surprised that they do not cooperate. Its quite clear that teachers arent the only ones to blame, but yet the only "remedies" focus on closing schools to get rid of teachers.
Public education under Bloomberg was horrible. Dumbing down test scores and reducing requirements to boost graduation levels is atrocious imo. By reducing requirements and test scores to pass made ever more students of the NYC public school system ill prepared for college, even ill prepared for community college or even CUNY. One of the main reasons why natives moved out of NYC is because of the poor school system here, but far better school systems upstate or down south. When it comes to for graduation from high school or even advancing to a public college a typical New Yorker will not be hired by private firms and companies. Thankfully the government sector is a major job creator in NYC that keeps many locals employed, and lets not forget trades and craftsman jobs which also higher plenty of those who are uneducated however earn a very decent living.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy
To be fair Bloomberg alone cannot improve the schools..the UFT has fought any change to their gravy train, so it will only guarantee failure. Why do you think Bloomberg was forced to close schools? Because the union would not do anything, so it was the only avenue he had..close schools or do nothing at all..and doing nothing is not an option..so he closed schools.
The reform of education will always fail, which is why no other Mayor bothers, because the union won't allow any change. Bloomberg at least tried...and that is way more than anyone else has done. Until the union is disbanded (which is never), education in NYC will remain pathetic...regardless of who is in office.
Its not only NYC that has poor public education system. Many cities through out America primarily large cities in the rustbelt and much of the Northeast has or have a dysfunctional education system. To be honest I don't know who is at blame like the politicians, union, teachers, parents, students. Public Education in America from the top in DC the Department of Education to the bottom school districts need some sort of reform. The American urban school system is very outdated in thought process and does not allow students to think critically, be creative and competitive, the very skills that is needed to be harnessed when they reach adult! One of things I wished for is public school in America as a whole she just be federalized, every kid from coast to coast has the same curriculum same standards, same requirements, a much more fairer system, even though it sounds borderline Nazi/Communist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
There's one problem that people aren't addressing.
The quality of the students. A big portion of the city, especially in poor neighborhoods, have parents on public assistance or drugs. Or even if they are working class, the parents may not have high school degrees themselves, or if they do have high school degrees, they aren't really the types to value education and the college track.
I'm not going to say the teachers union is always right. Nothing is. But to expect teachers to miraculously turn uninterested students into kids on a Harvard track is just plain ridiculous. That's not teaching, that's divine intervention.
Private schools, where people pay for their education, also tend to have more motivated students because they have parents who are a lot more concerned about their education.
Good point. I will try to rep you. Its also the quality of students that are in some of these schools, it just takes five bad kids to ruin out of class of 25. School itself is like a cult, monkey see monkey do, students fall out of line and become trouble makers. Also in much of the city most students come for average typical broken family headed by a single mom who most likely is unemployed, underemployed working long hours and has a revolving door of boyfriends. It is true that some parents do not value education because they themselves do no come from an educational background, but not all are like that. Some graduate high school to become track workers, elevator repairmen and or electricians, plumbers, the bits and pieces of nooks and crannies that keep this city afloat.
Overall Bloomberg has done a poor job when it comes to handling education in NYC. I feel sorry for parents who have to bus their kids to far away schools, struggle to either pay rent and risk getting evicted or sending their kids to a parochial school, or moving out of the city all together because suburban schools or schools in the American sunbelt/bible belt are superior. Also we have to look the future, interest rates for tuition has just gone up, so now students will have pay more for college when they earn their respective degrees. I'm just waiting for the college bubble to pop in this country. One thing that public school here in NYC needs to do is to teach up and coming students software programming like coding for example and or other technology concentrations.
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