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There was nothing you directly stated wrong..but you are saying that the people have spoken about what kind of policing and government they want....that is true...except that was decided several hundred years ago with the constitution. Why should we be voting locally about whether it should still apply today in NYC? We should not be, yet our own government and police, those we trust to uphold these laws are the ones suspending/violating them and forcing the conversation that we should not be having!
There was nothing you directly stated wrong..but you are saying that the people have spoken about what kind of policing and government they want....that is true...except that was decided several hundred years ago with the constitution. Why should we be voting locally about whether it should still apply today in NYC? We should not be, yet our own government and police, those we trust to uphold these laws are the ones suspending/violating them and forcing the conversation that we should not be having!
Your a 100% correct. I'm a libertarian! Trust me I hate big government and nanny states which is what NY is. All I say is that if you see crime spiking, you can't have it both ways. Cops also can't have it both ways. Their union president sued the NYPD and NYC to stop quotas. So here the judge just gave Mr Lynch a early Christmas gift. Cops at the end of the day have to work within the rules and laws. If that means crimes goes up or down so be it. You have to work with the tools given to you. I wouldn't expect to clean my gutters without using a ladder right?
There was nothing you directly stated wrong..but you are saying that the people have spoken about what kind of policing and government they want....that is true...except that was decided several hundred years ago with the constitution. Why should we be voting locally about whether it should still apply today in NYC? We should not be, yet our own government and police, those we trust to uphold these laws are the ones suspending/violating them and forcing the conversation that we should not be having!
It's very funny to see you speak so strongly in favor of the Constitution considering your past comments about the 2nd Amendment.
Norwood: We are becoming a police state/militarized zone where laws and rights are suspended in the name of "safety". And it's becoming exponentially worse, regardless of S&F ending/retooled. If you work an 8 hour shift and can only sell 10 widgets....illegally forcing people to work 24 hours a day will dramatically increase the number of widgets in the short-term, but is nonetheless illegal and should be stopped, even if the widgets provide a perceived societal benefit. If crime goes up because police are now "forced" to follow the law (!), then nobody would argue with that. HOWEVER, if crime goes up because police are choosing not to do their jobs in retaliation for forcing them to follow the law, THEN we have a problem, and there is a profound difference between the 2. At this point, I am becoming more of a libertarian because our government is becoming more hostile towards its citizens.
Airborne: It would not be funny to you if you understood the 2nd amendment in its totality. The reason I have a problem with the 2nd amendment is 2 fold: its sole purpose was to arm all US residents to fight the British because we did not have a sufficient army. Once we defeated the British, it no longer served a purpose but at that point Americans took to their guns like white on rice, and secondly it has no place in our society today and has become a major liability in providing for the security of US citizens. One of the reasons why the government is turning the country into a militarized zone is because there is a race to who has the most/strongest/most dangerous weapons: citizens or the government! It should be abolished.
Sobro, The problem is that the media has distorted what SQF is. At the end of the day cops are city workers. There is no substantial raise or extra vacation days if a cop makes an arrest or doesn't. That's a whole other subject. In the meantime certain areas may or may not feel the crime wave. Harlem, Bushwick, Bed Stuy, Red Hook, and Downtown Brooklyn may be fine or might see spikes in crime. Honestly, These areas new inhabitants aren't from New York. So if some hipster takes a colt 45 off his dome in Bushwick, I could care less. I'll give you a quick story that was relayed to me by some boys in blue. They are in their car and see a group of 5 young men hanging out by the Marcy Houses. They also see 2 hipster/transplants across the street trying to hail a livery. One guy also notices a "Bulge" in the waistband of one of the young men. He tells his partner what he observes. partner B tells A " Hey it can be a cell phone or maybe the guys works construction? Maybe a tape measure? Either way the 1 guy in the group spots them and starts walking briskly into the courtyard of the pj's. Should they get out and stop said individual? Risck a CCRB? Lawsuit? Angst from the good folks of the Marcy Houses? Keep driving and enjoying the hot Spanish Coffee they just purchased? As person B says hey" We work within the rules" Also either way every other Friday I get the same pay check. Honestly, I couldn't agree more. Cops aren't like real estate or Wall Street Brokers who work on commission. That's a job where I can see people getting very jaded and just collecting checks till they hit the magic year 20. If I got a nickel every time I heard Twenty is plenty or twenty and out!
"But the number of stops had been declining since May 2012, before the trial this year, when police Commissioner Raymond Kelly revised training on the policy. Kelly sent a letter to City Council Speaker Christine Quinn detailing the changes, which included increased supervision.
The police department established an early warning system to identify officers who have received public complaints on the policy, and precinct commanders will be held accountable at weekly meetings. Kelly also created a new training course detailing how to conduct a lawful stop, following a review of the stop, question and frisk encounters. Officers who work in the highest-crime areas are receiving the training."
I don't think the media distorted S&F, I think they exposed what S&F is, due to the outcry from so many residents who have been under siege for years from the NYPD. As a resident of a community with out of control S&F, I can tell you that it is nothing less than a terrorism tactic by the NYPD...and has served no purpose but to scare and subjugate the population into hiding in their homes or leaving the city completely. If you believe subjugating/criminalizing innocent residents is an effective police strategy then we will agree to disagree.
In regards to your specific example, if there is an identifiable bulge in the waistband and a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been, or is about to be committed, then they are well within the law to stop and question the individual(s) and should do so because that is their job. If during questioning there is probable cause to search them, then they can frisk them as well and should do so because that is their job. See how that works? Unfortunately, when 90% of the stops result in nothing at all then clearly either the police do not understand the law and/or were poorly trained and/or have a different agenda/directive/goal.
If you are choosing not to do your job is where we have a problem, and where it becomes cops causing crime to increase because they are not doing the job. The argument that unless I can disregard the law I will not do my job, which is exactly what you are saying, is simply blackmail and not the kind of police officers or department anyone wants. And if that is the department that Ray Kelly has cultivated, then we should be looking to Ray Kelly as the culprit, and I believe he is wholly responsible for S&F and whatever aftermath we will all have to live with, while he cashes in his pension and takes a new cushy $$$ job in the private sector.
I don't think the media distorted S&F, I think they exposed what S&F is, due to the outcry from so many residents who have been under siege for years from the NYPD. As a resident of a community with out of control S&F, I can tell you that it is nothing less than a terrorism tactic by the NYPD...and has served no purpose but to scare and subjugate the population into hiding in their homes or leaving the city completely. If you believe subjugating/criminalizing innocent residents is an effective police strategy then we will agree to disagree.
In regards to your specific example, if there is an identifiable bulge in the waistband and a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been, or is about to be committed, then they are well within the law to stop and question the individual(s) and should do so because that is their job. If during questioning there is probable cause to search them, then they can frisk them as well and should do so because that is their job. See how that works? Unfortunately, when 90% of the stops result in nothing at all then clearly either the police do not understand the law and/or were poorly trained and/or have a different agenda/directive/goal.
If you are choosing not to do your job is where we have a problem, and where it becomes cops causing crime to increase because they are not doing the job. The argument that unless I can disregard the law I will not do my job, which is exactly what you are saying, is simply blackmail and not the kind of police officers or department anyone wants. And if that is the department that Ray Kelly has cultivated, then we should be looking to Ray Kelly as the culprit, and I believe he is wholly responsible for S&F and whatever aftermath we will all have to live with, while he cashes in his pension and takes a new cushy $$$ job in the private sector.
3 levels of suspicion. 1. Mere Suspicion
2. Reasonable suspicion is the second level and at this level a officer is allowed to pat an individual on his outer garments. Feels a hard object in the waistband. Gun or Iphone?
3. Probable Cause is the level when said person is arrested. Not searched.
That's the problem. Posters like yourself who mean well but do not have all the facts. Once again very easy for you in the comfort of your home to tell another individual to do their job. Stop the person. What if it's a cell phone? Tape Measure? You now have opened your self up to a possible lawsuit or CCRB. Is it worth it? At the end of the day i don't know if the cop has a family or his financial situation. Would I stop people on just reasonable or mere suspicion? NO. Would I stop someone on a 911 call with a very detailed description of a possible suspect? Yes, that way I could go on the radio and have the dispatcher play back the description to the individual I stopped. This is what I tell my cop friends. Your family is #1 not strangers in NYC. Your well being is #2 not strangers in NYC. #3 your co workers. At the end of the day once again it's a job not the freakin peace corps in Africa. Work within the rules and laws of NYC.
If the officer has enough reasonable suspicion that he does stop them and he is wrong 90% of the time, then clearly he does not know what reasonable suspicion, is poorly trained, and/or is simply disregarding the law and doing whatever he wants or is directed to disregard the law by a superior. So if it is a tape measure 90% of the time, the cop should be retrained, or if it is a cell phone 90% of the time then there may be a different reason why the cop continues to S&F people.
If you are a cop and you are choosing not to stop people when you have reasonable suspicion, then you are actively disregarding your job and making us more unsafe. We don't need cops like that. If your allegation is that unless I can freely violate rights I won't stop anyone, again, we do not need a police department like that or you as an officer. If this is what you are telling cop friends then you are doing a great disservice to the residents of this city, and reinforcing the toxic culture that is prevalent in the NYPD.
At the end of the day it is a job, and if you are choosing not to do it, then you should make way for those who do. It says quite clearly on the police car: To protect and serve, meaning the public, not yourself. Sounds like you don't agree with that so I am glad you are not a police officer.
However I do agree...if cops simply worked within the rules and laws of NYC, NONE OF THIS WOULD BE AN ISSUE. But that is not the case, as the law has been ignored and millions have been violated. Which means if there is a reasonable suspicion, they are obligated to act, and by choosing not to, they are again NOT working within the rules of the job!!!!!
On a side note, this helps demystify the whole reasonable suspicion vs probably cause confusion:
Funny people like you feel it's such an easy science to it. In baseball you get a hit 3 outta 10 chances are you will be a hall Of Famer. Finish last in medical school you are called DR. In CopLand you are called a civil rights abuser or racist. You can do your job without stopping people. Someone calls 911 show up and do the proper work. If no one calls up on 3 or 4 people at 3 in the morning then keep on driving. BTW you can't be that gullible to think some middle aged person thinks "I'm here to save the world because some stupid slogan on a city car"?
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