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How about a dystopian SYDNEY in 2080? Be careful not to add zombies...been done too often.
They always say you should write about what you know, right?
Again, originality is not really that important.. what about all those Shakespeare remakes? Shakespeare himself remade stories all the time...
Sydney doesn't have the long history of New York or London.
What I don't understand is why, if you are basing a future East New York on the London of the 1840's, you have any interest at all in what East New York is like now. The future of neighborhood can have very little to do with its past, even its recent past, as anyone who was familiar with Williamsburg in the 1970s can attest.
And there are so many little things you ca get wrong when writing about a place of which you have no experience. A few years ago, I read a fantasy novel called "Fairiies of New York" about people of the sidhe exiled to the Lower East Side. It was clear the author had absolutely no idea what he was talking about.
That IS a really good point. While there were Jews in NY since 1654, most of the German Jews came in the second half of the 19th century, followed by Eastern Europeans a little later.
West Indians came much later, of course, although there were some who came before, mostly through the slave trade, but most of them came here in the 20th century.
Of course-- to be clear this story is not meant to accurately reflect a) NYC in Dickens' time or b) NYC in the 21st century.
The culture, the feel of the setting, is based on a general 19th century New York (poorhouses/almshouses, large gap between the rich who lived in large spacious houses and the poor who lived in crammed tenements) but the demographics, the numbers and kinds of people in the fictional version of the city are based more on the 20th-21st century. The feel is what I think would generally come to most people's minds if they read the word 'Dickensian'': the kind of setting where rich boys are sent to exclusive boarding schools, where the very poor with no means of supporting themselves went to the almshouse and ate mush and peas and gruel, where young boys and girls worked in various kinds of jobs including sweatshop jobs, industrial jobs or street trades or picked pockets for fences in huge important cities. It's the same sort of vaguely defined 19th century/Victorian era that people mean in costume dramas where they don't exactly define the year or even decade and everyone wears a mish-mash of styles and occasionally mentions things like laudanum and opium dens and patent medicines. Only in this setting there's also an Orwellian element; huge locators on airships track criminals and street-level thieves have implants to make them better at their job.
In these kinds of shows and novels the actual 19th century period isn't that important, it's just there because a broad "19th century" setting causes a particular reaction and leads to certain expectations in the reader or viewer-- that the heroine will be proposed to by a snooty man if there's a marriage plot for instance.
For this kind of story, Sydney doesn't work. To elaborate on what I said to Kefir, the impression I got from what I learned in Australian History classes was that this was pretty much a "less prominent" city than New York or London at the same period. It wasn't a large city for most of the 19th century. Plus we didn't become an independent country till 1901 (there were separate colonial referendums for Federation in 1900). There's a very different feel and atmosphere to a large city in a colony than to one in an independent country. OTOH New York grew larger between 1825 and 1850 and was an important commercial hub in an independent country. It was more like London in the same period in that respect.
@OldStyle: I don't know. I really don't know. I suppose I could just rely on my knowledge of 19th-century New York's bad neighbourhoods. That's basically what I'm doing anyway.
@Binx: Here's a Wikipedia definition of steampunk. It's a fusion of a 19th century look with 20th or 21st century technology and is usually but not always actually set sometime in the 19th century.
Last edited by Morwen Edhelwen; 12-19-2013 at 03:46 PM..
One man's opinion: I don't think you can make an interesting or compelling fictionalized version of New York without knowing the real New York very well.
I can think of two novels that have already been written about a fictionalized, surreal version of New York: A Winter's Tale by Mark Helprin and Chronic City by Jonathan Lethem. Both authors are New Yorkers who know and love the city deeply. There are probably others, because this city inspires very strong feelings in people. I don't think you can pull it off just by reading about it.
What would be wrong with making a completely fictional city?
@Binx: You actually have a good point. Maybe I should wait until I can go and live in the States for a few years.
Now I'm wondering how many people who write books set in 19th century London (or a version that looks like 19th century London) have actually been to London...
Re originality: What some people seem to be missing is that writers have been adapting stories and reusing tropes and plot points for years. IIRC originality only
began in the 18th century. Even Shakespeare adapted most of his plots from other sources.
Searching IMDB for "Oliver Twist" and leaving out those results which clearly have nothing to do with the Dickens novel gives you heaps of results. Among them are many silent film adaptations and some episodes of TV crime shows with storylines which parallel the original plot (mostly by including a gang of child pickpockets.) IMDB title results for Oliver Twist You could make a case that all those adaptations were made because the writers were unoriginal. And maybe that was the case for some of them. But I think that on a deeper level the story is adapted so often because it still speaks to people somehow. It certainly does that to me. I think the only two other stories which have been adapted as often are "Romeo and Juliet" and "A Christmas Carol."
And where does whitlock get their assumptions about me? I'm not dressed as a ''wicca witch'' and have never dressed as one and am not planning to (and what IS a ''wicca witch''-- don't you mean either a Wiccan or witch?--I don't follow Wicca, practise witchcraft or follow any other religion, but I know the basics about it and know enough that a Wiccan does not necessarily practise witchcraft-- and how DOES one dress anyway? I was under the impression that most Wiccans dress normally, not in Celtic or medieval-inspired robes. Is it from my username and the fact that it sounds Welsh and plausible as something someone pretending to be Wiccan might use as a username, given that some Wiccans appear to be inspired by Welsh mythology? Is the idea that anyone with a Welsh-sounding username must be pretending to be Wiccan or want to be Wiccan in a superficial way? Gee I didn't know that all Tolkien fans smoke pot and love being "Wiccan"! Or that all Wiccans or "Wiccans" just love JRRT's works) *sarcasm* Or was it meant to be a joke?
so he could talk about the Black criminals and the Jewish pawn brokers... that is pretty clear.
She, actually. And you don't know what you're talking about. Stop implying that I'm racist, anti-Semitic or anything like that. This is not about "I'm Asian I'm so not racist." I know perfectly well what racism is (have you ever been kicked on the butt and called a "Damn Asian" (or whatever) by a White person? I swear I am not making this up) and am very sensitive to racism. I knew the implications and the stereotypes in question. The stereotypes are stereotypes for a good reason.
Consider this:
Fagin (in Dickens) was based loosely on an actual guy called Ikey Solomon who happened to be a fence in East London and happened to be a pawnbroker as a front. He also happened to be Jewish. There were and are some Jewish people who happen to be criminals. There were and are some Black people who happen to be criminals. Anyone can happen to be a criminal no matter what their race or religion is for whatever reason not related to their race or religion. Where the hell did I imply the things you seem to believe I am like:
"Ikey Solomon and others like him are a perfect example of every single Jewish person who lived in a Western country and happened to live in a poor neighbourhood?"
"All or even most Black Americans happening to live in poor neighbourhoods are criminals?"
And in the 19th century this sort of work and this sort of life was more common than it is now because of widespread anti-Semitism and anti-Black racism. And poverty caused in part by those prejudices. Some people in poverty get involved in crime for various reasons. Some of those people happened to be Black and some of those people happened to be Jewish. And happened to work as pawnbrokers. Did you miss that this is a 19th century style setting? And that in the period this story's setting bases its aesthetic and general culture on the only form of social welfare was often the poorhouse? And that crime was common back then because of the poverty so many people lived in? Do you know any of that? I assume you do. Why don't you ever mention that in your posts or show that you had actually read my OP before accusing me? Because your accusations to be blunt sound a bit baseless.
So bilmin, how about you read this post and the Wiki link on Ikey Solomon before accusing me of racism or anti-Semitism? Or other kinds of bigotry? Actually read them. And oh tell me where I said anything that could possibly be construed as anti-Semitic or racist? Even subtly. Because I think about my posts before I post them and I certainly am aware of these stereotypes, being Asian and all. And I certainly don't believe what you are implying.
Have you even read the Dickens novel in question? If you have you will remember that at the beginning Fagin is described like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Dickens (Oliver Twist chapter 8)
a very old shrivelled Jew, whose villainous-looking and repulsive face was obscured by a quantity of matted red hair.
She, actually. And you don't know what you're talking about. Stop implying that I'm racist, anti-Semitic or anything like that. This is not about "I'm Asian I'm so not racist." I know perfectly well what racism is (have you ever been kicked on the butt and called a "Damn Asian" (or whatever) by a White person? I swear I am not making this up) and am very sensitive to racism. I knew the implications and the stereotypes in question. The stereotypes are stereotypes for a good reason.
Consider this:
Fagin (in Dickens) was based loosely on an actual guy called Ikey Solomon who happened to be a fence in East London and happened to be a pawnbroker as a front. He also happened to be Jewish. There were and are some Jewish people who happen to be criminals. There were and are some Black people who happen to be criminals. Anyone can happen to be a criminal no matter what their race or religion is for whatever reason not related to their race or religion. Where the hell did I imply the things you seem to believe I am like:
"Ikey Solomon and others like him are a perfect example of every single Jewish person who lived in a Western country and happened to live in a poor neighbourhood?"
"All or even most Black Americans happening to live in poor neighbourhoods are criminals?"
And in the 19th century this sort of work and this sort of life was more common than it is now because of widespread anti-Semitism and anti-Black racism. And poverty caused in part by those prejudices. Some people in poverty get involved in crime for various reasons. Some of those people happened to be Black and some of those people happened to be Jewish. And happened to work as pawnbrokers. Did you miss that this is a 19th century style setting? And that in the period this story's setting bases its aesthetic and general culture on the only form of social welfare was often the poorhouse? And that crime was common back then because of the poverty so many people lived in? Do you know any of that? I assume you do. Why don't you ever mention that in your posts or show that you had actually read my OP before accusing me? Because your accusations to be blunt sound a bit baseless.
So bilmin, how about you read this post and the Wiki link on Ikey Solomon before accusing me of racism or anti-Semitism? Or other kinds of bigotry? Actually read them. And oh tell me where I said anything that could possibly be construed as anti-Semitic or racist? Even subtly. Because I think about my posts before I post them and I certainly am aware of these stereotypes, being Asian and all. And I certainly don't believe what you are implying.
Have you even read the Dickens novel in question? If you have you will remember that at the beginning Fagin is described like this:
Enough of this Madam- (sorry I thought you were a guy) You Madam are no Dickens--- and you introduced the fact that the "jew" was a pawnbroker (clear attempt at stereotype) and that the "black" was a criminal (another attempt at stereotype).
Again I ask have you ever written anything that has been published or is this a first attempt
This thread was very annoying to begin with but has gotten even more annoying with time.It also doesn't appear to have anything at all to do with NYC ,so probably shouldn't have been placed here to begin with.It belongs in a beginners writing forum perhaps,if there is such a thing.
Also,I thought Morwen was aka ELEDHWEN ?
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