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Right now I'm working on a first draft of a novel based on an idea I've had for a long while which is called Street Thieves And Artful Dodgers. It's a post-apocalyptic steampunk retelling of the Dickens novel Oliver Twist set in the New York area instead of London. I haven't been to either city but in terms of history, culture etc I know more about New York than London. It helps that Dickens and New York do have a connection. (For people Actually the story is set in Brooklyn, which is a separate city from NYC again. Brooklyn was chosen because of 21st century Manhattan being heavily gentrified.
This version has Oliver himself as a clone of his father Mr. Leeford, Monks being conceived through sperm donation (Mr. Leeford was forced to agree to it), Oliver's mother being a servant and the daughter of a fisherman, the Artful Dodger being the protagonist and Nancy's brother, Nancy being Fagin's daughter and Fagin running a pawnshop in an old warehouse and adopting millions of orphans who he cares for like his own biological children and trains to be pickpockets and have back-alley implants. There's also a woman in his gang who's Dodger and Nancy's mother and a baby farmer (some of the kids in Fagin's gang arrived through her). Fagin is Jewish, Oliver is
Spoiler
technically half Icelandic
Dodger is Black (West Indian/African American descent) and race, social caste/class and religion are plot points.
Now here is where it starts getting a bit funny/weird/iffy. In London at the time of Oliver Twist (1837-1838) one of the most famous "bad" neighbourhoods was Saffron Hill in the East End and this was where Fagin's den was in the book. Nowadays Saffron Hill isn't that bad. As this retelling is set in Brooklyn, I wanted to put Fagin's den in a neighbourhood with a similar reputation and chose East New York specifically the New Lots area. (I did do some basic research)
There are probably some posters here on CD who live or have lived in ENY. So I'd like to ask some questions if anyone minds. I want to make Dodger's narration as convincing as possible and not inadvertently perpetuate any stereotypes. I'm aware that there's a Black criminal stereotype/Jewish pawnbroker stereotype which I plan to comment on. Also aware that Fagin as the character was written by Dickens is an anti-Semitic stereotype. My version of Fagin is more like Ron Moody in Oliver! (Only he doesn't sing You've Got To Pick A Pocket Or Two or Reviewing The Situation.) However he is a kind-hearted and loving (but strict) father figure to all those kids.
As in the original George Cruikshank illustration he wears a headscarf. (You pretty much have to humanise Fagin if you're going to write/play him as Jewish, which is a good thing.)
Here are the first few questions. Sorry if I accidentally offend anyone.
1. How common are racial tensions in ENY? To be specific, would two adults of different races (one White and openly Orthodox Jewish, the other Black and with a Jamaican accent) and living with a number of foster children of different racial backgrounds run into any problems?
2. What are the memorable aspects of growing up/living in ENY?
3. What's the general culture of the neighbourhood? Do different sections have small cultural differences?
4. What are some common stereotypes of ENY?
Last edited by Morwen Edhelwen; 12-18-2013 at 02:51 AM..
Brooklyn is part of NYC, it's not a separate city. And since you've never been to East New York and want to write about it, why don't you go look at some of the streets on Google Street Views so you can see what the area looks like.
__________________
"The man who sleeps on the floor, can never fall out of bed." -Martin Lawrence
Your idea sounds intriguing but since I have no experience with ENY, I can't add anything except to say that the next century will bear little resemblance to the last for ANY neighborhood.
Good Luck with your work.
Right now I'm working on a first draft of a novel based on an idea I've had for a long while which is called Street Thieves And Artful Dodgers. It's a post-apocalyptic steampunk retelling of the Dickens novel Oliver Twist set in the New York area instead of London. I haven't been to either city but in terms of history, culture etc I know more about New York than London. It helps that Dickens and New York do have a connection. (For people Actually the story is set in Brooklyn, which is a separate city from NYC again. Brooklyn was chosen because of 21st century Manhattan being heavily gentrified.
This version has Oliver himself as a clone of his father Mr. Leeford, Monks being conceived through sperm donation (Mr. Leeford was forced to agree to it), Oliver's mother being a servant and the daughter of a fisherman, the Artful Dodger being the protagonist and Nancy's brother, Nancy being Fagin's daughter and Fagin running a pawnshop in an old warehouse and adopting millions of orphans who he cares for like his own biological children and trains to be pickpockets and have back-alley implants. There's also a woman in his gang who's Dodger and Nancy's mother and a baby farmer (some of the kids in Fagin's gang arrived through her). Fagin is Jewish, Oliver is
Spoiler
technically half Icelandic
Dodger is Black (West Indian/African American descent) and race, social caste/class and religion are plot points.
Now here is where it starts getting a bit funny/weird/iffy. In London at the time of Oliver Twist (1837-1838) one of the most famous "bad" neighbourhoods was Saffron Hill in the East End and this was where Fagin's den was in the book. Nowadays Saffron Hill isn't that bad. As this retelling is set in Brooklyn, I wanted to put Fagin's den in a neighbourhood with a similar reputation and chose East New York specifically the New Lots area. (I did do some basic research)
There are probably some posters here on CD who live or have lived in ENY. So I'd like to ask some questions if anyone minds. I want to make Dodger's narration as convincing as possible and not inadvertently perpetuate any stereotypes. I'm aware that there's a Black criminal stereotype/Jewish pawnbroker stereotype which I plan to comment on. Also aware that Fagin as the character was written by Dickens is an anti-Semitic stereotype. My version of Fagin is more like Ron Moody in Oliver! (Only he doesn't sing You've Got To Pick A Pocket Or Two or Reviewing The Situation.) However he is a kind-hearted and loving (but strict) father figure to all those kids.
As in the original George Cruikshank illustration he wears a headscarf. (You pretty much have to humanise Fagin if you're going to write/play him as Jewish, which is a good thing.)
Here are the first few questions. Sorry if I accidentally offend anyone.
1. How common are racial tensions in ENY? To be specific, would two adults of different races (one White and openly Orthodox Jewish, the other Black and with a Jamaican accent) and living with a number of foster children of different racial backgrounds run into any problems?
2. What are the memorable aspects of growing up/living in ENY?
3. What's the general culture of the neighbourhood? Do different sections have small cultural differences?
4. What are some common stereotypes of ENY?
IT seems that you are trying to write something futuristic. Hmm trying mixing nourish style with dyostopian society. Well technically NYC is dystopian and a very dystopian place to live. Sometimes NYC at times does reminds me of Blade Runner especially with its cityscape.
If you want West Indians, Orthodox Jews, and children of different racial backgrounds in your setting, the neighborhood that springs immediately to mind is Flatbush, not East New York.
To be honest, I don't think you'll be able to write anything that convincingly evokes New York, even a bizarro version of it, if you're just researching it from afar.
If you want West Indians, Orthodox Jews, and children of different racial backgrounds in your setting, the neighborhood that springs immediately to mind is Flatbush, not East New York.
To be honest, I don't think you'll be able to write anything that convincingly evokes New York, even a bizarro version of it, if you're just researching it from afar.
I agree and the outline you present borders on racist and anti Semitism --- be careful
1. How common are racial tensions in ENY? To be specific, would two adults of different races (one White and openly Orthodox Jewish, the other Black and with a Jamaican accent) and living with a number of foster children of different racial backgrounds run into any problems?
2. What are the memorable aspects of growing up/living in ENY?
3. What's the general culture of the neighbourhood? Do different sections have small cultural differences?
4. What are some common stereotypes of ENY?
Depends on one's definition of East New York, if one includes City Line, Cypress Hills and Starrett City into the mold. Each sub area although share similarities have a different feel or appearance and probably some notable financial differences. Media today for the most part do not mention the sub neighborhoods as ENY, but rather as it's own. Something I noticed recently and perhaps to draw attention into these areas.
1. Racial-Ethnic-Cultural tensions are not too common as in some other areas, like Crown Heights for example. For the most part East New York and the sub neighborhoods are primarily populated by Latinos, African-Americans, Caribbeans, South Asians (many Bengalis) and some Chinese and remaining White populations (Italian-Irish) in the sub areas.
Most or the majority of the altercations I witnessed in the area, the participants were of similar ethncity, an African-Amercan vs an African-American or a Latino arguing with another Latino. The large motorcycle cliques around the area are multi-ethnic, Latinos, African-Americans and Caribbeans.
I know of a few individuals who had or have foster children, one is a neighbor, non seem to have any major social issues that I am aware about.
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2. Personally lived in different areas of NYC (Brooklyn-Queens) but I grew up in City Line and currently live in Cypress Hills. I can explain it like this from a child to an adult, fun, cautious, perhaps potential
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3. In the north or the sub neighborhoods of the north, which is Cypress Hills and City Line, the main cultures that dominate are various Latino cultures and south Asian cultures. It's notable in the main shopping streets and shop signs, the languages you will hear or the types of food you will eat at a local restaurant. The people range from working class to lower middle class and individuals who are mid-middle class. Some folks are better off than others and it's notable, but that is everywhere.
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4. Dangerous, dirty, gritty, lots of green space, burned down, ghetto, lot's of boarded up properties, lot's of drugs, murderous, unknown or terra incognita for a lot of people.
@bilmin: I don't think you understood what I'm going for. This is based on Dickens' Oliver Twist so yes of course it's a "copycat" idea in that it takes the plot of a classic novel and reimagines it which has been done multiple times. Just because an idea has been done loads of times doesn't mean you can't do your own spin on it. And the "basic research" I have done includes Google Street View.
Anti-Semitism? I'm aware of the unfortunate implications of the plot and also of subtle and overt racism (I was on an escalator in a shopping mall here in Sydney whwen I was still in high school. A White lady was behind me. She kicked me and said "Damn Asians!") I am not making this up.
Quote:
Now here is where it starts getting a bit funny/weird/iffy. In London at the time of Oliver Twist (1837-1838) one of the most famous "bad" neighbourhoods was Saffron Hill in the East End and this was where Fagin's den was in the book. Nowadays Saffron Hill isn't that bad. As this retelling is set in Brooklyn, I wanted to put Fagin's den in a neighbourhood with a similar reputation and chose East New York specifically the New Lots area. (I did do some basic research)
There are probably some posters here on CD who live or have lived in ENY. So I'd like to ask some questions if anyone minds. I want to make Dodger's narration as convincing as possible and not inadvertently perpetuate any stereotypes. I'm aware that there's a Black criminal stereotype/Jewish pawnbroker stereotype which I plan to comment on.Also aware that Fagin as the character was written by Dickens is an anti-Semitic stereotype. My version of Fagin is more like Ron Moody in Oliver! (Only he doesn't sing You've Got To Pick A Pocket Or Two or Reviewing The Situation.) However he is a kind-hearted and loving (but strict) father figure to all those kids
Bolding mine. Apologies if I sound defensive- even though it mightn't seem like it this is not about me or me saying "I'm an Australian (and Asian) so I can't be racist!" As I said above I'm aware of the stereotypes and plan to comment on them, subvert them and make them not racist. Are you denying that a) there are some West Indians who are or were involved in crime and (b) there were or are some Jews who are or were involved in crime? Emphasis on some (where did I imply in my OP that I believe most West Indians or Orthodox Jews are involved in crime?) Did I ever imply that I believe Dodger is representative of every Black child in East New York or even that most children in East New York are pickpockets?
Is no-one allowed to write about people who happen to be Black and be involved in crime? Or happen to be Ashkenazi Jews and work as pawnbrokers (and happen to be involved in crime?) unless they are Black or Ashkenazi Jewish? I guess Dickens shouldn't have written Oliver Twist since he was never a workhouse child (he did work in a blacking factory though. But that's not the same thing). This is a 19th century based future. In the 19th century and present day, unskilled and even some skilled immigrants whose qualifications are useless in the host country tend to live in poverty. Some of them get involved in crime. It was probably a lot more common in the 19th century when the only real form of social welfare was the poorhouse (which was dreaded by many people.) Racism and anti-Semitism was also a significant part of life in the 19th century. Back then many Jewish immigrants worked as second-hand clothing dealers, factory workers, shopkeepers and yes-- pawnbrokers.
Another point on 19th My own race was prevented from entering Australia by the White Australia Policy which began in the 19th century and ended in the 1970s. (IIRC we were also the subjects of anti-Chinese legislation in the US). What I meant when saying that race is a plot point was that institutionalised racism and its effects are explored in the plot. Perhaps I'm being naive, so please explain what you found borderline anti-Semitic or racist against Black people in my outline. I'd be genuinely interested to know.
Fagin is definitely an anti-Semitic stereotype in Dickens. (And so btw is Barney a minor character at the Three Cripples who's just as bad a religious stereotype.) But this is not going to be Dickens. If it's bordering on anti-Semitic and racist have you got any suggestions to make it less so? I'm being serious here.
@SeventhFloor: Of course Brooklyn is part of NYC now but it used to be a city on its own. That's why I said "Brooklyn is a separate city from NYC again."(IIRC it was a separate city around the time Oliver Twist was set)
@ShadowMassa: Thanks for that. Tell me honestly-- are there ways to make this plot less racist or anti-Semitic? Do you believe it is racist or anti-Semitic?
(Also can I PM you?)
Last edited by Morwen Edhelwen; 12-18-2013 at 04:30 PM..
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