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Harlem was always an income diverse place, since way back in the Madam C J Walker days. Many people are already lugging stuff up from WF, Trader Joe's, Garden of Eden, and West Side Market. Years before that, it was Food Emporium and Gristedes. People still get in their cars and go to Shop Rite. Also many places that are considered higher end are actually cheaper on frequently purchased items, and carry the unusual things that some customers want.
What I don't like is that it took a few White people to move in, for everyone to be able to get the stores that they have been shopping in for years to come uptown.
I don't think it's white people. I think it is simply the sheer fact of development cash, what came before white people. Someone "envisioned" the next big cash flow and Harlem was available and at hand.
White people are more a symptom of something bigger. If an area cannot be submitted to profiteering it is not visible.
It might seem a small distinction but I think it is a major one.
SO is a Harlem native and has always held this opinion. He does work adjacent to big finance so predictable I suppose.
It is primarily to provide the middle class and up residents - who do exist - somewhere to shop without a major subway trip. Bodega and dollar store and outlet gets tired. And hey, who has visited Magic Johnson ...
Secondarily, it will provide an employment and/or - more "or" I think - socialization venue. How that will work out is anyone's guess.
Whole Foods will likely prove far less tolerant of the baloney local hires dish out to their customers than has been the case with, say, the post offices (125th and 145th). This is evident at the 99th street store, commonly called the "ghetto" Whole Foods. This will be a positive thing for all involved except the perpetrators.
I go to Magic Johnsons, and I have never had a bad experience there. One of my neighbors was beat up in front of movie theater downtown, as he was exiting with his under age son.
Some higher end places would actually be better for a poor person to shop in especially for produce and diary. But it is psychological, many think the higher end places will cost more, and don't go in to check them out. it is a known fact that food cost more in a poor neighborhood.
They will only hire people that are capable of working with knowledge and a professional attitude. There are enough CUNY grads that need entry level jobs of all types, and others that need part time employment, a 2nd job.
There are also many people that have been managers of different depts. in supermarkets looking for new jobs. We often think of stock people and cashiers. But there are managers of the diary, produce. meat etc depts that have to handle a budget, order the products, and supervise staff. Super markets also hire in store accountants, and bookkeepers, also IT staff.
Some higher end places would actually be better for a poor person to shop in especially for produce and diary. But it is psychological, many think the higher end places will cost more, and don't go in to check them out. it is a known fact that food cost more in a poor neighborhood.
Oh, I agree and know this already. I talk about it with people all of the time. On another thread someone just made a truly ignorant comment about fish buying, no understanding of how important an awareness of that is both health-wise and environmentally-speaking. Such people are a challenge best avoided, but I have mostly just found - no information but open minds.
Regarding hires ... they are hiring locals and "making a commitment" there, as was the case at 99th street.
I know personally of at least one restaurant that tried this and shows people the door at the first incident.
And another that is struggling on a daily basis with the problem of local hires as we speak. They are themselves locals. Resisting the City College and Columbia job boards but I am guessing this will end. Hearts in the right place, I would do the same. But is it worth your business ?
Must disagree about Magic Johnson. What a bottom experience. Just like Union Square but far more noise and carrying on.
Actually, we only go to the Lincoln Square theater, sometimes Film Forum.
I don't think it's white people. I think it is simply the sheer fact of development cash, what came before white people. Someone "envisioned" the next big cash flow and Harlem was available and at hand.
White people are more a symptom of something bigger. If an area cannot be submitted to profiteering it is not visible.
It might seem a small distinction but I think it is a major one.
SO is a Harlem native and has always held this opinion. He does work adjacent to big finance so predictable I suppose.
I have to disagree with you on this one. Many of us have been shopping at high end stores for years because the prices are better, the quality is better, and there are more choices. Now the choice thing I can see. Because there are many cultures of people, of all colors, so you would have to cater to the ones that live in the neighborhood.
However for years people have been lugging stuff home from downtown, so there has always been a market for it. Yes you may see me in the local supermarket, but I do my major shopping elsewhere and drive home, or take a cab, or have it delivered. I was definitely not alone in this.
If these stores managed to stay open, and they would only stay open if they made a profit, and they made one with subpar quality products, and I know for a fact that the prices were higher. They could have easily had quality products with the same high prices.
Now the prices are still a little high but the quality is much, much better. Of course more cultures more choices also.
I also work in big finance. Your friend has a point if we are just talking about dollars and sense. But I was also referring to expectations, before and after, and fair treatment.
I have to disagree with you on this one. Many of us have been shopping at high end stores for years because the prices are better, the quality is better, and there are more choices. Now the choice thing I can see. Because there are many cultures of people, of all colors, so you would have to cater to the ones that live in the neighborhood.
However for years people have been lugging stuff home from downtown, so there has always been a market for it. Yes you may see me in the local supermarket, but I do my major shopping elsewhere and drive home, or take a cab, or have it delivered. I was definitely not alone in this.
If these stores managed to stay open, and they would only stay open if they made a profit, and they made one with subpar quality products, and I know for a fact that the prices were higher. They could have easily had quality products with the same high prices.
Now the prices are still a little high but the quality is much, much better. Of course more cultures more choices also.
I also work in big finance. Your friend has a point if we are just talking about dollars and sense. But I was also referring to expectations, before and after, and fair treatment.
It's actually my husband ! And we were with you lugging things home. A milestone for many of us was the 99th Whole Foods delivering.
I'm not sure you understood what I meant - the argument goes that Harlem is in the process of being made a site of value extraction by big capital. It's not the mere presence of white people. They are a symptom of this greater process that preceded them. The race thing is emphasized to keep attention off this bigger picture.
Oh, I agree and know this already. I talk about it with people all of the time. On another thread someone just made a truly ignorant comment about fish buying, no understanding of how important an awareness of that is both health-wise and environmentally-speaking. Such people are a challenge best avoided, but I have mostly just found - no information but open minds.
Regarding hires ... they are hiring locals and "making a commitment" there, as was the case at 99th street.
I know personally of at least one restaurant that tried this and shows people the door at the first incident.
And another that is struggling on a daily basis with the problem of local hires as we speak. They are themselves locals. Resisting the City College and Columbia job boards but I am guessing this will end. Hearts in the right place, I would do the same. But is it worth your business ?
Must disagree about Magic Johnson. What a bottom experience. Just like Union Square but far more noise and carrying on.
Actually, we only go to the Lincoln Square theater, sometimes Film Forum.
Yes I get your environmental concern on the fish. I share that concern.
Yes that proprietor should show them the door. Customers may never come back after bad treatment. This is why I don't shop at Fairway in Harlem. I spent good money there before I experienced bad treatment.
People don't ignore CUNY boards, many are not hired because they don't have connections. CUNY alumni is not much help. If people don't go to a CUNY because of this I totally understand. But the quality of the teaching is excellent and the price is good. Also you may have the same perceptions of a CUNY grad I see that many do also. I think this is so unfortunate for both sides potential employee, and employers.
I can't see that a Columbia student would need to start out at WF or any supermarket.
We can agree to disagree on MJ's also. Like I said I have never had that experience at Magic Johnsons. Maybe its the time you went like when the movie just came out, and the type of crowd that it attracts. If I see that type of film I go the second week (movie may be showing after 2 weeks.) I also like Lincoln Square, and I am also a member of the Film Forum. I am a cinema buff.
Yes I get your environmental concern on the fish. I share that concern.
Yes that proprietor should show them the door. Customers may never come back after bad treatment. This is why I don't shop at Fairway in Harlem. I spent good money there before I experienced bad treatment.
But a big part of me says ... stick with the really low-income young people, especially those struggling at the job. Work with them.
You would not believe how much spoiled food we have purchased over the years at Fairway.
We never go there now.
It's actually my husband ! And we were with you lugging things home. A milestone for many of us was the 99th Whole Foods delivering.
I'm not sure you understood what I meant - the argument goes that Harlem is in the process of being made a site of value extraction by big capital. It's not the mere presence of white people. They are a symptom of this greater process that preceded them. The race thing is emphasized to keep attention off this bigger picture.
Yes I get it. But isn't that because of more White people moving in. There were always White people but at one point Whites were few in number. Would big capital still think there was value to extract if there were 99% Black and Latin like it was before? Even though they knew there were Black people with money there before.
I do realize the process as well, but that also goes for that as well, since they wanted it to lead up to this.
But a big part of me says ... stick with the really low-income young people, especially those struggling at the job. Work with them.
You would not believe how much spoiled food we have purchased over the years at Fairway.
We never go there now.
If you have the time and the money to recoup the losses then yes you can work with them. But I think I'm referring to one type of young person that can happen to be poor, or not. The type I was referring to was the educated, well mannered.
While you are referring to poor young people with no guidance. One that has never been a part of a "family" or church, or other organization, that has over the years groomed them to have deportment. What we used to refer to "home training". Many business people can't take these types on, for so many reasons.
Yes I get it. But isn't that because of more White people moving in. There were always White people but at one point Whites were few in number. Would big capital still think there was value to extract if there were 99% Black and Latin like it was before? Even though they knew there were Black people with money there before.
Well, that's the thing. SO says - YES.
But I have not made up my mind. I think it's complicated. I do think that race is often used to create divisions between people, historically this has certainly been so. For example, working class people have a lot in common with each other, and could make gains possibly if united. Divided by race this becomes more difficult if not impossible.
Lesson of migrations from the south, argument of Henry Louis Gates and I agree with him.
It's a good point about wealth in Harlem previously though. I can add that the predatory investment - which aggressively targets sites and creates opportunities for profits - in its current incarnation is kind of more recent. Target, create, move people in. My point was the idea that the target and create part might be the most meaningful in the process.
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