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Old 09-01-2014, 12:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
If officers aren't going to do their jobs and enforce the law, they need to be fired.
Some are just practicing a little discretion. Half the people on this thread, much less this board, long for the good old days, when people could do whatever they wanted! Sell & use drugs openly, streetwalkers, vandalism, larceny, farebeating, while the police were occupied elsewhere with thousands of murders and tens of thousands of robberies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
some feel that, as a matter of law, law enforcement officers have been protected too much by judicial system.
More feel that the judicial system has protected & coddled criminals too much. In NYC, when some repeat offender makes the news, he generally has >20 (Orta) or >30 (Garner) previous arrests, with no prison time & little jail time.
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Old 09-01-2014, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Honolulu/DMV Area/NYC
30,471 posts, read 17,902,378 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjake54 View Post
Some are just practicing a little discretion. Half the people on this thread, much less this board, long for the good old days, when people could do whatever they wanted! Sell & use drugs openly, streetwalkers, vandalism, larceny, farebeating, while the police were occupied elsewhere with thousands of murders and tens of thousands of robberies.

More feel that the judicial system has protected & coddled criminals too much. In NYC, when some repeat offender makes the news, he generally has >20 (Orta) or >30 (Garner) previous arrests, with no prison time & little jail time.
That's dishonest use of discretion that isn't addressing basic problems that you're hired to address. If you pass by criminal activity that has an effect on general qualities of life, you're not supposed to just walk by. But, with this "discretion," those cops show they long for those days, too, as this "discretion" is a signal to criminals that they can get away with even more than they normally would!

There is a problem with repeat offenders. I gladly admit that. But you can't expect to lock someone up for their entire life for peddling illegal cigs, etc. Still, that takes away nothing I wrote regarding the realities facing police officers.
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Old 09-01-2014, 01:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
That's dishonest use of discretion that isn't addressing basic problems that you're hired to address. If you pass by criminal activity that has an effect on general qualities of life, you're not supposed to just walk by. But, with this "discretion," those cops show they long for those days, too, as this "discretion" is a signal to criminals that they can get away with even more than they normally would!
You can't have it both ways.
Either police enforce minor violations, whether trespassing, farebeating, smashing your empty 40 on the ground, selling loosies, etc., or they don't. When they do, idiots want to resist & fight and try the case on the street. When they don't, some people want them fired.
What did 35 arrests of Garner accomplish? Was he ever going to stop selling untaxed cigarettes outside licensed stores? Get a job? Support his kids? Loose weight?
60 years ago, he might have gotten a rap on the shins with a nightstick, every time he was found standing outside a story. No arrest, but his cigarettes might also have been confiscated. Whether the packs would have been torn to shreds & tossed in the trash, or expropriated, may have depended on the brand.
What did 20+ arrests of Orta accomplish? Was he going to stop selling pot to minors? Stop carrying weapons? Might as well wait, until he actually shoots somebody, and then hope they decide to testify, should they survive.
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Old 09-01-2014, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Honolulu/DMV Area/NYC
30,471 posts, read 17,902,378 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjake54 View Post
You can't have it both ways.
Either police enforce minor violations, whether trespassing, farebeating, smashing your empty 40 on the ground, selling loosies, etc., or they don't. When they do, idiots want to resist & fight and try the case on the street. When they don't, some people want them fired.
What did 35 arrests of Garner accomplish? Was he ever going to stop selling untaxed cigarettes outside licensed stores? Get a job? Support his kids? Loose weight?
60 years ago, he might have gotten a rap on the shins with a nightstick, every time he was found standing outside a story. No arrest, but his cigarettes might also have been confiscated. Whether the packs would have been torn to shreds & tossed in the trash, or expropriated, may have depended on the brand.
What did 20+ arrests of Orta accomplish? Was he going to stop selling pot to minors? Stop carrying weapons? Might as well wait, until he actually shoots somebody, and then hope they decide to testify, should they survive.
Who's saying have it both ways? Certainly not the people out there protesting over Eric Garner, at least not for the most part. Also, aggressive enforcement of unlawful behavior having an impact on quality of life issues doesn't mean making arrests in every instance. People aren't exactly rising up and protesting because farebeaters and others committing non-violent offenses are being ticketed. Hell, had Garner not been choked to death despite not violently resisting, I doubt people would be rising up in this instance either.

Ultimately, you'll never make everyone happy. But that's no excuse not to do your job. If you're not going to do your job, why are you working? But let's get serious. How many police officers have been fired unjustly in NYC as of late? Those police officers engaging in disgraceful slowdown techniques are full of BS and are throwing a dangerous temper tantrum. They do not seriously fear losing their jobs.

What are 20 arrests of someone going to accomplish? How about sending a message to other would be criminals that certain acts are not going to be tolerated? It may not mean much to the person being arrested 20 times, but its a message to others. We've always had a problem with repeat offenders. And as long as you're not executed people for every offense or giving people life in prison for every offense, you're always going to have a problem with repeat offenders. We have a repeat offender problem even with crime dropping to decades lows in NYC. Surely, aggressive policing is going to have an impact on overall crime levels.
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Old 09-01-2014, 03:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
Who's saying have it both ways? Certainly not the people out there protesting over Eric Garner, at least not for the most part. Also, aggressive enforcement of unlawful behavior having an impact on quality of life issues doesn't mean making arrests in every instance. People aren't exactly rising up and protesting because farebeaters and others committing non-violent offenses are being ticketed. Hell, had Garner not been choked to death despite not violently resisting, I doubt people would be rising up in this instance either.

Ultimately, you'll never make everyone happy. But that's no excuse not to do your job. If you're not going to do your job, why are you working? But let's get serious. How many police officers have been fired unjustly in NYC as of late? Those police officers engaging in disgraceful slowdown techniques are full of BS and are throwing a dangerous temper tantrum. They do not seriously fear losing their jobs.

What are 20 arrests of someone going to accomplish? How about sending a message to other would be criminals that certain acts are not going to be tolerated? We've always had a problem with repeat offenders. And as long as you're not executed people for every offense or giving people life in prison for every offense, you're always going to have a problem with repeat offenders. We have a repeat offender problem even with crime dropping to decades lows in NYC. Surely, aggressive policing is going to have an impact on overall crime.
Complain to the politicians and constant nanny's who actually created a black market for unlicensed cigs. You expect some grunt ( low level cop) to jeopardize his/her pension for unlicensed cigs or drinking booze? Pick a quiet corner and use your kindle.
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Old 09-01-2014, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Honolulu/DMV Area/NYC
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Originally Posted by Norwood Boy View Post
Complain to the politicians and constant nanny's who actually created a black market for unlicensed cigs. You expect some grunt ( low level cop) to jeopardize his/her pension for unlicensed cigs or drinking booze? Pick a quiet corner and use your kindle.
Ah, the lovely language flies. How nice. The job of the police department is to enforce the law. They don't set policy. That's the job of the politicians. The police officers serve the public, not the other way around. If you can't or won't do your job, then perhaps you should be looking for another one. Absent that, you're getting paid for under-performance and negligence, which can't be good policy and which could only lead to more crime in the city. But, as I asked an earlier poster, do explain to me how many police officers have unjustly lost their jobs in the NYPD over the last few years? These officers are in no serious danger of [unjustly] losing anything, and are just throwing a dangerous tantrum because they are not getting their way. Give me a break.

Last edited by prospectheightsresident; 09-01-2014 at 03:48 PM..
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Old 09-01-2014, 04:12 PM
 
3,244 posts, read 5,219,029 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
Who's saying have it both ways? Certainly not the people out there protesting over Eric Garner, at least not for the most part.
Do you think any of those protestors give a damn about Garner? Between the militants, the race pimps & the apologists, there's perhaps a few relatives, who knew what he was, but are willing to ignore it, for a piece of the lawsuit settlement.
Quote:
aggressive enforcement of unlawful behavior having an impact on quality of life issues doesn't mean making arrests in every instance. People aren't exactly rising up and protesting because farebeaters .. are being ticketed.
People are upset when fares increase. Part of that is due to farebeating. Stats also show that a lot of turnstile jumpers have warrants, and are riding to commit other crimes. You think a thief or robber pays the fare?
Quote:
had Garner not been choked to death despite not violently resisting, I doubt people would be rising up in this instance either.
Again, creative history. Did you watch the video? Garner slammed the officer into a plate glass window, before being taken to the ground. Have you ever seen a plate glass window shatter? The top part slides downs in the channels like a guillotine! Think Ghost. And, he was not choked, much less to death. Obesity & asthma did him in.
Quote:
Ultimately, you'll never make everyone happy. But that's no excuse not to do your job. If you're not going to do your job, why are you working?
Most police officers want to do their job. But, as I've been saying for most of my life, "You only get in trouble when you do your job." I don't know what you do, but I doubt you give 100% every day, especially when the boss or the customers have been dicks.
Quote:
How many police officers have been fired unjustly in NYC as of late?
How would you know? DA Johnson in The Bronx indicted dozens of PBA reps, because they referred some parking tickets to the PBV for dismissal. Yet, parking tickets are routinely dismissed at the request of politicians, top city officials, clergy & even police commanders! No one has ever been charged or disciplined for that.
Quote:
police officers engaging in disgraceful slowdown techniques are full of BS and are throwing a dangerous temper tantrum. They do not seriously fear losing their jobs.
The officers have been ordered to not enforce the law in those areas! Not obeying orders will cost you your job, if you're not transferred to a precinct on the other side of the city.
Quote:
What are 20 arrests of someone going to accomplish? How about sending a message to other would be criminals that certain acts are not going to be tolerated? It may not mean much to the person being arrested 20 times, but its a message to others.
That message appears to be: "No matter how many times you get locked up, nothing is going to happen to you. You'll be out in 24 hours." Why Garner decided to make a big deal of his 35th arrest is beyond me. He certainly knew that he would be released shortly. Perhaps he was just putting on a show for Orta to record. The ending was unscripted.
Quote:
We've always had a problem with repeat offenders ... even with crime dropping to decades lows in NYC.
"Putting people through the system" helps to some degree. But, considering the number of times the lesser percentage of professional criminals are arrested, there needs to be more punishment for minor offenders, than catch & release.
Quote:
Surely, aggressive policing is going to have an impact on overall crime levels.
There are many competing theories.

Last edited by bigjake54; 09-01-2014 at 04:21 PM..
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Old 09-01-2014, 04:48 PM
 
Location: Honolulu/DMV Area/NYC
30,471 posts, read 17,902,378 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjake54 View Post
Do you think any of those protestors give a damn about Garner? Between the militants, the race pimps & the apologists, there's perhaps a few relatives, who knew what he was, but are willing to ignore it, for a piece of the lawsuit settlement.

People are upset when fares increase. Part of that is due to farebeating. Stats also show that a lot of turnstile jumpers have warrants, and are riding to commit other crimes. You think a thief or robber pays the fare?

Again, creative history. Did you watch the video? Garner slammed the officer into a plate glass window, before being taken to the ground. Have you ever seen a plate glass window shatter? The top part slides downs in the channels like a guillotine! Think Ghost. And, he was not choked, much less to death. Obesity & asthma did him in.

Most police officers want to do their job. But, as I've been saying for most of my life, "You only get in trouble when you do your job." I don't know what you do, but I doubt you give 100% every day, especially when the boss or the customers have been dicks.

How would you know? DA Johnson in The Bronx indicted dozens of PBA reps, because they referred some parking tickets to the PBV for dismissal. Yet, parking tickets are routinely dismissed at the request of politicians, top city officials, clergy & even police commanders! No one has ever been charged or disciplined for that.

The officers have been ordered to not enforce the law in those areas! Not obeying orders will cost you your job, if you're not transferred to a precinct on the other side of the city.

That message appears to be: "No matter how many times you get locked up, nothing is going to happen to you. You'll be out in 24 hours." Why Garner decided to make a big deal of his 35th arrest is beyond me. He certainly knew that he would be released shortly. Perhaps he was just putting on a show for Orta to record. The ending was unscripted.

"Putting people through the system" helps to some degree. But, considering the number of times the lesser percentage of professional criminals are arrested, there needs to be more punishment for minor offenders, than catch & release.

There are many competing theories.
Yes, I think many of the protesters care about Garner. The man, while one who got into trouble with the police numerous times, was a father of 6 who died while the police were trying to take him into police custody. If people don't care about that, and about getting to the bottom of whether police misconduct was the cause of the death, then we have a serious problem. And I don't support longer sentencing for non-violent crimes, particularly when it means keeping people away from their families. I try to weigh the benefits and harm to the public/families of increased incarceration.

I don't understand what your point about farebeaters is. People aren't protesting the ticketing of and, to the extent that its clear that they have warrants, arrests of farebeaters. Thus, I don't see, even to the extent that I buy the NYPD's general argument here, how enforcement of such quality of life crimes would lead to any reasonable fear of officers losing their jobs/pensions as a result of public outrage/political prosecutions/etc.

Can you say that the Bronx DA's indictments were unjust or illegal? Prosecutions are truly discretionary, and prosecutors have wide legal authority to enforce certain laws as certain times (police officers don't have the same authority to ignore criminal activity occurring right in front of them). Without more, I'm really not going to say that this was unjust. But I think its pretty telling that the Bronx precincts didn't announce what amounted to limited work stoppages over those indictments and that the NYPD unions aren't citing those now as a reason for their "fear" (though some BX officers did protest the indictments, but, then again, they were out there protesting the indictments of the officers behind the 41 shots massacre of Amadu Diallo). The burden of proving that police officers risk unjustly losing their jobs is on the police officers/unions making such claims, whether explicitly or by implication. And I focus on "unjust" because I certainly don't mourn for officers who are lawfully fired/have charges brought against them.

And the fact that NYPD superiors are "ordering" rank and file officers to not enforce the law doesn't change the overall substance of my criticism, though it shifts who it is aimed at. The thing is, police officers who fine people for violations that they witness aren't likely going to lose their jobs; if they get reprimanded for doing their jobs, then they have a great lawsuit in the making. But to the extent that they think they are, it would seem that they have more to fear regarding unjustly losing their jobs from corrupt supervisors than from pressure put on them by the public, etc.

Last edited by prospectheightsresident; 09-01-2014 at 04:59 PM..
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Old 09-01-2014, 05:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
many of the protesters care about Garner.
You & I will have to disagree, about whether the protestors have their own agendas.
Quote:
I don't support longer sentencing for non-violent crimes, particularly when it means keeping people away from their families. I try to weigh the benefits and harm to the public/families of increased incarceration.
The real problem is, that there is usually no incarceration at all! Perhaps someone will eventually document the dispositions of each of Garner's arrests. It will be interesting to see how much, or how little, time he actually spent in jail. Imposing fines that are never paid, or conditions (no return to scene, report to probation, obtain employment, community service) that are ignored, is no deterrent.
Quote:
I don't understand what your point about farebeaters is.
It's a seemingly minor offense. Many people question enforcement of it. Plenty of those stopped for it, complain. Just read some of the whiny threads here! It costs NYC (tens of?) millions of dollars in revenue. Wait until some overweight asthmatic dies resisting arrest!
As for loosies: 60% of cigarettes sold in New York are smuggled: report - Jan. 10, 2013
"chronic cigarette-tax evasion" deprives the state of at least $1.7 billion in tax revenue"
Quote:
Can you say that the Bronx DA's indictments were unjust or illegal?
IMO, yes. Possibly both. Time will tell.
Quote:
Prosecutions are truly discretionary, and prosecutors have wide legal authority to enforce certain laws as certain times (police officers don't have the same authority to ignore criminal activity occurring right in front of them).
You are absolutely incorrect on this. Both have discretion, within limits. Do you think a DA could refuse to investigate a homicide, with multiple eyewitnesses or on video? Fact is, the Garner death would be routinely investigated, within all the histrionics.
Quote:
I think its pretty telling that the Bronx precincts didn't announce what amounted to limited work stoppages over those indictments
What you don't know won't hurt you.
Quote:
the fact that NYPD superiors are "ordering" rank and file officers to not enforce the law doesn't change the overall substance of my criticism, though it shifts who it is aimed at.
Actually, it completely does, although you don't realize this.
Quote:
police officers who fine people for violations that they witness aren't likely going to lose their jobs.
Police don't fine anyone.
Quote:
they have more to fear regarding unjustly losing their jobs from corrupt supervisors than from pressure put on them by the public, etc.
There's as much office politics within a police department, as there is in any other hierarchy or bureaucracy, public or private. Supervisors are generally not corrupt; they are generally just passing down the message, which is often delivered to them in blunt form.
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Old 09-01-2014, 05:40 PM
 
Location: Honolulu/DMV Area/NYC
30,471 posts, read 17,902,378 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjake54 View Post
You & I will have to disagree, about whether the protestors have their own agendas.

The real problem is, that there is usually no incarceration at all! Perhaps someone will eventually document the dispositions of each of Garner's arrests. It will be interesting to see how much, or how little, time he actually spent in jail. Imposing fines that are never paid, or conditions (no return to scene, report to probation, obtain employment, community service) that are ignored, is no deterrent.

It's a seemingly minor offense. Many people question enforcement of it. Plenty of those stopped for it, complain. Just read some of the whiny threads here! It costs NYC (tens of?) millions of dollars in revenue. Wait until some overweight asthmatic dies resisting arrest!
As for loosies: 60% of cigarettes sold in New York are smuggled: report - Jan. 10, 2013
"chronic cigarette-tax evasion" deprives the state of at least $1.7 billion in tax revenue"

IMO, yes. Possibly both. Time will tell.

You are absolutely incorrect on this. Both have discretion, within limits. Do you think a DA could refuse to investigate a homicide, with multiple eyewitnesses or on video? Fact is, the Garner death would be routinely investigated, within all the histrionics.

What you don't know won't hurt you.

Actually, it completely does, although you don't realize this.

Police don't fine anyone.

There's as much office politics within a police department, as there is in any other hierarchy or bureaucracy, public or private. Supervisors are generally not corrupt; they are generally just passing down the message, which is often delivered to them in blunt form.
The conversation over whether there is incarceration or not for low level crimes is important, but, ultimately I'm trying to refocus the reason why I came into this forum. The reason Garner or others may not get jail time is often the result of a political/legal decision made by assistants to popularly elected district attorneys. These decisions, however, don't excuse police officers from doing their job in enforcing the law.

People complaining in the forums and a few other locations doesn't scream to me like the kind of pressure that is going to endanger police jobs. Still, I'm waiting on concrete evidence from the unions and others who claim that they fear losing their jobs for doing their jobs that this is actually a reasonable/legitimate fear.

And I am absolutely correct on this. Yes, a DA could refuse to investigate a homicide with multiple eyewitnesses or on video. That's 100% within their discretion; on the other hand, police officers are in a much trickier legal situation in terms of discretion in such cases. Now, whether or not they will do so for political reasons is another story. Still, I didn't make my comment to suggest that DAs as a regular matter will go to such extremes in refusing to enforce the law, but rather that their discretion is much, much greater than police officers.

That goes exactly to my point: Garner's death would have been routinely investigated, which is why I don't see how the fact that it is makes any officer reasonably fear for losing his job/pension, especially in any unjust way (Again, if the cops are justly on the line for losing their jobs, good.). This is pure routine practice.

And do explain how this is and how I just don't see it being so.

Police officers issue summons and fines. Whether an individual fined by police officers will actually have to pay that fine, however, is ultimately not up to the police officer.

If the police supervisors on Staten Island were getting this from someone else in the civilian command, I would bet that this would have leaked by now. Ultimately, though, what you wrote may very well be true for this instance. But, until there's evidence that it is so, I'm going by what is being reported. By the way, I didn't claim that supervisors are generally corrupt. But, if the stories being reported on this matter hold true, I will argue that the supervisors involved in this matter are. Just as an observational point, I find it difficult to believe that higher-ups in the de-Blasio Administration would have given such a command, particularly when the Mayor is already under scrutiny for increases in crime that some are linking to a decrease in stops and frisks.

Last edited by prospectheightsresident; 09-01-2014 at 06:33 PM..
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