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Old 11-05-2014, 06:11 PM
 
1,087 posts, read 1,382,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wizardofmoz View Post
Regarding the liberal arts/skilled trade argument...my two cents.

I agree that liberal arts majors often go on to law school or any number of careers. I also agree that skilled trades are a good, safe bet for a job.

Having earned an M.A. and worked in education, my experience has been that (a) mediocre talents are encouraged to pursue things like fine arts and (b) regardless of talent, these students are discouraged from learning or doing anything unrelated to their talent.

For example, Jim likes to write stories or draw pictures, but he's not particularly good. He wants to major in English or fine arts, his choice. No one ever tells him his stories are awful, pictures are bad, etc., so as to not hurt his feelings. Worse, no one says, "Maybe learn Excel or master English grammar as part of Plan B." Instead, they say, "Follow your dreams. Don't let anyone stop you." So Jim graduates and no one wants to buy or even peruse his work. He has no job skills/Plan B. He ends up working at Starbucks with $30K+ in student loan debt.

My advice--go ahead and major in what you love. But train for what people will pay you to do. A barista with a fine arts degree can barely afford to create art as a hobby, due to lack of time and money for art supplies. But a fine arts major who also studied accounting can afford to paint away every weekend.

A lot of people would be a lot happier if they realized that doing what you love does not equate to being paid to do what you love.
Very True
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Old 11-05-2014, 06:47 PM
 
34 posts, read 39,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armyvet1 View Post
Very True
I should maybe clarify that I don't think every barista with a fine arts degree is talentless. Quite the opposite. I'm simply saying that there aren't enough paying jobs, or galleries, or publishers, or book buyers, to support the number of people who want to be writers and artists.

The usual response I get to this is something like, "F*** money! Don't sell out! You'll hate yourself!" But to me, getting a paying job is not selling out. And being forced into a minimum-wage job, where you can't afford art supplies, would be torture. So take the job correcting ad copy, and write your novels evenings and weekends. At least you'll be able to afford a new laptop when the old one breaks.
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Old 11-05-2014, 07:17 PM
 
1,087 posts, read 1,382,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wizardofmoz View Post
I should maybe clarify that I don't think every barista with a fine arts degree is talentless. Quite the opposite. I'm simply saying that there aren't enough paying jobs, or galleries, or publishers, or book buyers, to support the number of people who want to be writers and artists.

The usual response I get to this is something like, "F*** money! Don't sell out! You'll hate yourself!" But to me, getting a paying job is not selling out. And being forced into a minimum-wage job, where you can't afford art supplies, would be torture. So take the job correcting ad copy, and write your novels evenings and weekends. At least you'll be able to afford a new laptop when the old one breaks.
And that makes sense. I'm not anti college but I do not support reckless spending and excessive student debt on the hope that you may be able to get a great job upon graduation. This 1.2 trillion in student loan debt is going to have to be payed and if the grads can't because of a stagnant job market then who's gonna pay it? Tax payers, we'll all have to work longer to pay back a debt most of us didn't create in the first place.

I would like to implement the 10/20/30/40 rule. Associates degrees should not cost more then 10k, a bachelors no more then 20k, a masters no more then 30k , and a doctorate no more then 40k.

We need to change our higher education system and how it's being handled financially. A good degree program that leads to a good job should not cost a student 100k. At these tuition prices, we've sold out both the quality and value of a degree for sole purpose of the bottom line. Money has corrupted many churches, don't think it can't do it to colleges as well.
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Old 11-17-2014, 03:31 AM
 
Location: Woodhaven
14 posts, read 15,040 times
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DINK = "Dual Income No Kids". A couple (usually married) who does not choose to have children for purposes of enjoying their money on themselves.
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Old 11-17-2014, 06:07 AM
 
25,556 posts, read 23,886,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wizardofmoz View Post
Regarding the liberal arts/skilled trade argument...my two cents.

I agree that liberal arts majors often go on to law school or any number of careers. I also agree that skilled trades are a good, safe bet for a job.

For example, Jim likes to write stories or draw pictures, but he's not particularly good. He wants to major in English or fine arts, his choice. No one ever tells him his stories are awful, pictures are bad, etc., so as to not hurt his feelings. Worse, no one says, "Maybe learn Excel or master English grammar as part of Plan B." Instead, they say, "Follow your dreams. Don't let anyone stop you." So Jim graduates and no one wants to buy or even peruse his work. He has no job skills/Plan B. He ends up working at Starbucks with $30K+ in student loan debt.
The problem there is no one will really know or be able to tell who can do well or make it in the arts. Also the type of person who likes the arts probably doesn't want to master Excel.

And there is nothing wrong with working in the restaurant or bar if that actually suits you.
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Old 11-17-2014, 06:12 AM
 
25,556 posts, read 23,886,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wizardofmoz View Post
I should maybe clarify that I don't think every barista with a fine arts degree is talentless. Quite the opposite. I'm simply saying that there aren't enough paying jobs, or galleries, or publishers, or book buyers, to support the number of people who want to be writers and artists.

The usual response I get to this is something like, "F*** money! Don't sell out! You'll hate yourself!" But to me, getting a paying job is not selling out. And being forced into a minimum-wage job, where you can't afford art supplies, would be torture. So take the job correcting ad copy, and write your novels evenings and weekends. At least you'll be able to afford a new laptop when the old one breaks.

As a writer, learning different types of writing take massive amounts of time and emotion. And different people have different strengths. Rarely is a novelist good at copy and vice versa. Also these are very different fields, with very different contacts/networks. Generally it's a good idea to focus on what you're really after.
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Old 11-17-2014, 06:16 AM
 
25,556 posts, read 23,886,062 times
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Originally Posted by Armyvet1 View Post
Not only that but famous movie producers, actors, and musician become that way because they had a natural born talent for it. You can either sing or you can't, a 4 year degree in music is not going to give you the talent to sing, something like that is something you are born with as a natural talent.
Those people have lots of training, either in private lessons, academies, or universities. Film and music are highly technical.

I deal with these people all the time and the vast majority have excellent educations.
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Old 11-17-2014, 06:17 AM
 
25,556 posts, read 23,886,062 times
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Originally Posted by Armyvet1 View Post
It's not bizarre pride its a reality that if we continue to rack up student loan debt in excess of 1.2 trillion dollars we're headed for another economic crisis. Debt is not something to glamorize, just because you can easily get loans for college doesn't mean it's something that should just be considered acceptable or as a norm.

First of all all this debt is keeping young grads from purchasing homes, starting families, buying their first new car. Alot of grads move back in with their parents, they are failing to launch because they are being placed into a situation that is keeping them from being able to all because all they really wanted was a decent life for themselves so they went and financed a degree. The day they graduated the real world came along and gave them a kick in the pants.

You seem to look down on the working class people but those same blue-collar working guys who fight fires or risk their lives protecting the innocent are the same people who died on 9/11 trying to save white-collar yuppie elitists like yourself.

Also as far as working in academia goes more and more colleges are using adjunct professors because they are cheaper then a full time actual professor. If colleges actually cared about education instead of profit, they would used full time dedicated faculty and be more involved with their students. How much value do you think you're getting for your money in higher education when you're in a lecture hall with 150 other kids?

How much do you think college is still about quality education when you have football coaches at the collegiate level making 3.1 million a year? Why do tuitions keep rising while new grads continue to struggle to find work but yet as these tuitions rise we see campuses become like little towns with Starbucks, Rock Climbing Walls, cafes. When I was on campus at Duke they had a dining hall combined with a convience store, an actual restaurant, a retail store, and a few other things I can't even remember. Does any of that sound like learning to you? Do you really think colleges are still non-profit?

And one last thing I do come from a blue-collar military family. My family also owned an electrical company, we had 5 houses in Putnam County New York, a condominium in Flagler Beach Florida, and as kids we never went without food, shelter, or clothing. I was grateful to be apart of that family, hardworking blue-collar guys who were more then capable of taking care of their family.
Now you're just going off on tangents.
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Old 11-17-2014, 06:19 AM
 
25,556 posts, read 23,886,062 times
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My basic point is you cannot tell people want to study or do. Everyone has different circumstances, resources, ambitions, conditions,etc.

In short they will have to figure it out on their own, and if they do end up in debt that is something they'll deal with.
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Old 11-17-2014, 10:11 AM
 
1,087 posts, read 1,382,637 times
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Well I'm a fan of musical arts, I play drums and have written some of my own stuff, I even thought about putting a little hobbyist studio in my basement.

However I have a job that pays my bills, a music degree wouldn't pay my bills, my 2 year technical degree in mechanics and refrigeration pays my bills, see what I'm saying, I wasn't going to make 25 dollars an hour as a musician but I do make 25 dollars an hour as a service technician.

I love music, and the arts in general, but I was smart enough to realize that I also needed to make a living.
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