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Come to think of it, Williamsburg and LIC gentrification had been spoken for awhile. But the East River Brooklyn and Queens truly BLEW UP after the 2008 collapse. While smaller businesses and weaker property owners may have been hurt, the big guys saw this as the opportunity to BUY on the CHEAP. They bought up those neigborhoods (all the industrial assets, warehouses, etc) and what you now see in Williamsburg and LIC is the result.
That is all another economic crash would do. Cause the liquidation of the smaller guys and let the big sharks come in for the kill. In short economic crashes can make gentrification that much easier. Oh and the federal money to gentrify will still come in (huge tax credits).
I too had Jewish teachers/educators and knew of Jews who used to live in the area. We even knew of a Jewish lady who is dead now for a longtime who lived in Morrisania not to far from the CBE and she was pregnant at the age of 13. I never knew poverty existed then in the area. I'm not sure if you know anything about demarcation zones and physical land borders or what not. But the CBE is like a scar that cut through a vein or an artery which severed a connection between two communities. This is what the CBE did. Even though its possible to cross over the CBE, it just severed two or more neighborhoods
Plenty of industrial buildings are being converted into housing just like what they did in Williamsburg, Greenpoint and LIC. Also Mott Haven has historic districts that feature town houses and brownstones, some used to be sro but now are owned by individuals who rent out entire apartments. Some vacant yards in the area all but gone and turned into affordable housing. Last they want to build a waterfront complex which seems to be in the works. Projects do not take up most of the space here in Mott Haven, but yes they are a physical eyesore. Just recently NYCHA sold an housing project which is going to be converted into a coop. Hotels are opening up in the area, some changes here and there, but yet its still mainly low income and renter occupied. Mott Haven is close to Manhattan for jobs and amenties and 174-175 is a further away from that. Mott Haven crime has been reduced but still an issue, I'm not sure about the crime rate in GC and 174-175. But yes Mott Haven has issues but me personally I would not recommend at all costs because I live in the area and I know whats going on, however I do embrace some of the changes though.
Being that I lived in Morrisania after that vein was cut and no one was crying about it I just don't see it like that. Most of the teachers I had were originally from the GC and University areas and had recently moved to Riverdale. They were young, they had marched for civil rights and served in the Pearce Corps. The 2 communities were mostly connected from the fight for civil rights. Because of the discrimination both groups received, the Jewish business people tended to hire Blacks for menial jobs.The last of the Jews to move out of neighborhood had children that made friends with Black children on their blocks and in school.
NYC was mostly segregated by groups of people so this was about the extent of the Black and Jewish relationships. Mott Haven was industrial and poor immigrants lived there before the projects were built. When Morrisania was all White it was a step up. The GC and University Ave areas were the next steps.
The rule of thumb was if a Black family moved in all the Whites moved out. This occurred in the White sections of Harlem, The Bronx, Jamaica, Bed-Stuy etc.
They can develop every possible inch of Mott Haven they are going to quickly run out of space. I'm a real estate junkie so I'm quite aware of the other industrial areas that have developed. They were much larger than the available space in Mott Haven. Mott Haven is a precursor. It will attract the population spill over from Harlem because some people's main concern is to be as close to Manhattan as possible. That is also the lure of Bed-Stuy and LOC.
Come to think of it, Williamsburg and LIC gentrification had been spoken for awhile. But the East River Brooklyn and Queens truly BLEW UP after the 2008 collapse. While smaller businesses and weaker property owners may have been hurt, the big guys saw this as the opportunity to BUY on the CHEAP. They bought up those neigborhoods (all the industrial assets, warehouses, etc) and what you now see in Williamsburg and LIC is the result.
That is all another economic crash would do. Cause the liquidation of the smaller guys and let the big sharks come in for the kill. In short economic crashes can make gentrification that much easier. Oh and the federal money to gentrify will still come in (huge tax credits).
Well, yes the big guys would come in for the kill but they might have to warehouse their properties for 20 years through another bottoming out and up cycle.
Do you realize how much of Harlem still has nothing going on above the first floor ? I see it on The express bus all the time. Blocks and blocks of weird businesses on the street level with emptiness above. Been that way for 25 years now. I'm sure someone has been warehousing all those buildings for big projects for the whole 25 years.It takes a long,long time.
Being that I lived in Morrisania after that vein was cut and no one was crying about it I just don't see it like that. Most of the teachers I had were originally from the GC and University areas and had recently moved to Riverdale. They were young, they had marched for civil rights and served in the Pearce Corps. The 2 communities were mostly connected from the fight for civil rights. Because of the discrimination both groups received, the Jewish business people tended to hire Blacks for menial jobs.The last of the Jews to move out of neighborhood had children that made friends with Black children on their blocks and in school.
NYC was mostly segregated by groups of people so this was about the extent of the Black and Jewish relationships. Mott Haven was industrial and poor immigrants lived there before the projects were built. When Morrisania was all White it was a step up. The GC and University Ave areas were the next steps.
The rule of thumb was if a Black family moved in all the Whites moved out. This occurred in the White sections of Harlem, The Bronx, Jamaica, Bed-Stuy etc.
They can develop every possible inch of Mott Haven they are going to quickly run out of space. I'm a real estate junkie so I'm quite aware of the other industrial areas that have developed. They were much larger than the available space in Mott Haven. Mott Haven is a precursor. It will attract the population spill over from Harlem because some people's main concern is to be as close to Manhattan as possible. That is also the lure of Bed-Stuy and LOC.
I don't know why everyone seems to think these neighborhood transformations happen over night. Williamsburg started in 1990. Bushwick started in about 2000 and it's still a crap neighborhood. I started hearing about the gentrification of Harlem about 20 years ago and believe me it still has a very long way to go.The UWS took about 30 years. Soho about 20 years,Chelsea about 20 years. The buzz about Washington Heights has been going on for 20 years and again,a lot of it is still unlivable. I'm old. I've been here a long time . I've watched it. I lived in most of the neighborhoods while it was happening.I remember when people started leaving Williamsburg for Bushwick and Astoria 20 years ago.
Vast swaths of Harlem are still deep hood,blocks and blocks and blocks are vacant above the 1st floor.
Most of the places you guys are talking about will still be quite messy even in another 10 years and that's if ,as Bronxguyanese points out, the economy co operates. There is probably a 50/50 chance it won't and things will slow down or come to a halt. There must be some kool aid you all are drinking with this idea that everything is just going to keep moving endlessly in the same direction.
I think it will be at least another 10 or so years before even these "hot" places in the S Bronx will change much and 20 or 25 years for further up in the 170's and 180's.
Generally,it took 30 or 40 years for a neighborhood to decline and it takes almost as long to recover completely. It's a very,very slow process.
One other thing nobody has brought up. One of the reasons Williamsburg gentrified relatively easily was because it was virtually deserted.The pioneers just moved right into empty and abandoned buildings. There was virtually no population to displace, no resistance if you will……and it still took 20 years and it's still mostly just the North Side.
Anyone who wants to move into these neighborhoods and wait it out is welcome. Just hope and pray you are not dead before it all happens and didn't waste the best years of your life living in a crappy neighborhood waiting for the change to come.
This is so true. I have read and listened to an excerpt about the East Village and how it started to gentrify during the 1960s. The area did not completely gentrify until the 90s which is a good 30 year process. During that time gentrification of the East Village spilled over into Williamsburg Brooklyn. Gentrification is a long and time staking process Even in my neighborhood, people were fearing white people moving in during the 90s and what not well before their was no type of gentrification in my area. I cant explain gentrification but it has to looked at on a micro and macro levels of race, economics, class, education and housing.
As far as neighborhoods for the rich. They have them already they don't need any more. Most of these neighborhoods are developing for middle class people supposedly, even in Harlem. But tell me how many working people can pay $500K - 1M for housing? How many people can pay $1300 rent and bring home $1000 every 2 weeks? This is what many civil servants bring home after paying pension loans, retirement accounts, carfare, college savings accounts for their children. This is why NYCHRA is bursting at the seams with one shot deal applications. So called affordable housing is not affordable. So it ends up that people with some wealth and the poor end up in some areas like Harlem.
I don't see interest rates or recessions or any of these other things putting any stop to gentrification. Its not because of all these silly complicated macroeconomic factors. As someone else already said, a downturn in the real estate market is bad for small guys but a huge fire sale for the mega developers with deep pockets who can take advantage of the situation and buy for cheap.
Gentrification is very simple. Its happening because we live in a globalized world where the uber rich have their pick of real estate across the entire planet. Some of the most desirable locations are the world class cities like New York, London, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc.. It's not just happening here, its everywhere.
The uber wealthy buy in the best locations in the city core, pushing the wealthy out, who push out the middle class, who push out the poor. The situation right now is pretty extreme. Many of us middle class (100K+ income) people can barely afford harlem and washington heights anymore. I really don't know how people working low end jobs survive in the NYC metro area.
I agree with you about the drawbacks of Mott Haven. Lots of projects, terrible air quality, and almost no parks (may change when they renovate the waterfront). Also if you're in an area which has the 6 train that's a very slow local train which is not really an optimal commute to Manhattan. That's a big part of why I chose Norwood instead
The one time I rode my bike through Crotona Park I saw only one white woman with a kid on the playground and she didn't look wealthy.
I like Norwood. There is not much available for rent or sale so it must be fairly nice. You mentioned the annual hip hop concerts in Crotona Park, they draw a diverse crowd. There is also a Morrisania reunion day in August check the Friends of Crotona Park website. Former residents come from all over the east coast and join current residents some families have lived in the area for decades. You can learn a lot about the area. Bring a bag lunch. No one will attack you and they are happy to answer questions.
I don't see interest rates or recessions or any of these other things putting any stop to gentrification. Its not because of all these silly complicated macroeconomic factors. As someone else already said, a downturn in the real estate market is bad for small guys but a huge fire sale for the mega developers with deep pockets who can take advantage of the situation and buy for cheap.
Gentrification is very simple. Its happening because we live in a globalized world where the uber rich have their pick of real estate across the entire planet. Some of the most desirable locations are the world class cities like New York, London, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc.. It's not just happening here, its everywhere.
The uber wealthy buy in the best locations in the city core, pushing the wealthy out, who push out the middle class, who push out the poor. The situation right now is pretty extreme. Many of us middle class (100K+ income) people can barely afford harlem and washington heights anymore. I really don't know how people working low end jobs survive in the NYC metro area.
To some degree economics does effect gentrification, gentrification is part of economics of this country and city. If interest rates go up for example, it would let persons and even developers be cautious of buying property, during the economic downturn gentrification sped across light speed across the city and it still does to this day thanks to slight downfall in housing prices. Don't get me wrong big guys fell too, like Myrle Lynch, Lehman Brothers, AIG and so on. I remember reading an excerpt that states if the Feds raise federal interest rates gentrification wont stop but will indeed slow down. Their were other factors at large that contributed to gentrification such as the decline of American suburbia, high price of gas and the decline of autos, highly over educated suburbanites who mainly go off to college, when these kids come back their are no jobs in the suburbs except for logistics, data centers, civil positions, shipping, low wage service jobs. The Lack of jobs and skilled jobs in the suburbs forced many young people to move to big cities in large numbers. So far their is already a push to make the burbs sustainable which may help reverse gentrification across cities in America.
Well, yes the big guys would come in for the kill but they might have to warehouse their properties for 20 years through another bottoming out and up cycle.
Do you realize how much of Harlem still has nothing going on above the first floor ? I see it on The express bus all the time. Blocks and blocks of weird businesses on the street level with emptiness above. Been that way for 25 years now. I'm sure someone has been warehousing all those buildings for big projects for the whole 25 years.It takes a long,long time.
Do you see how much of Harlem is under construction now? I live there I should know.
The developers and banks are getting huge tax credits that mitigate much of the risk. Its not like when they build a new building they have to instantky fill all units either.
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