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I only read the first page of this thread. But i'm going to chime in.
I'm education holding a masters in sound design (recording, editing for TV, film), yet over the hundreds (and i mean it) of applications, resume revisions, and connections i've made in NYC still hasn't granted me any work in any field other than B2B software, where i reside next to sales reps and support reps. It's really unfortunate and absolutely absurd to live here.
I live in Fort Greene / Clinton Hill Brooklyn and it's a pretty expensive area. I pay $1000/mo for 1 out of 3bedrooms off of Park ave. Yet, I get on the bus and it's question how I'm living among lower income. And, I agree with the OP, i would never choose to raise a family here if I had no education then equating to lower income housing, because things would never get any better. I lived down south for a few years going to college and it ABSOLUTELY be a better situation for some of these lower income families to move down south.
It's a bleak outlook here in NYC in general. You're working to literally live, and it explains why 25% of my paycheck is going to government expenses, probably to help those less fortunate in this city alone.
I only read the first page of this thread. But i'm going to chime in.
I'm education holding a masters in sound design (recording, editing for TV, film), yet over the hundreds (and i mean it) of applications, resume revisions, and connections i've made in NYC still hasn't granted me any work in any field other than B2B software, where i reside next to sales reps and support reps. It's really unfortunate and absolutely absurd to live here.
I live in Fort Greene / Clinton Hill Brooklyn and it's a pretty expensive area. I pay $1000/mo for 1 out of 3bedrooms off of Park ave. Yet, I get on the bus and it's question how I'm living among lower income. And, I agree with the OP, i would never choose to raise a family here if I had no education then equating to lower income housing, because things would never get any better. I lived down south for a few years going to college and it ABSOLUTELY be a better situation for some of these lower income families to move down south.
It's a bleak outlook here in NYC in general. You're working to literally live, and it explains why 25% of my paycheck is going to government expenses, probably to help those less fortunate in this city alone.
The South isn't necessarily better. Huge parts of the South have rural poverty. The better parts of the South are expensive to live in as well.
Lower income people in NYC don't drive. So there's an added expense right there. Southern states tend to have sales tax on food and medicine. So buying food when you have a tight budget may bite you. Lastly people forget the South is a huge region. There are rural areas where one can be two hours away from a major hospital. So if one has a stroke one can be DEAD before they get you to a stroke center. In NYC you're close to hospitals and other facilities.
It also depends on how you live. I frequently go out to restaurants, bars, museums, etc. NYC is much better with any of these than any place in the South. Particularly since we have restaurants with food from all around the world. When I want to travel NYC has three major airports. The cheap parts of the South you are pretty far from the airport.
There's an excellent retail sector here if you like shopping and these days there's great grocery store choice. For entertainment not only do you have the mainstream movie theaters, there are plenty of places to see independent films and plays.
Civil Service jobs are becoming increasingly hard to get not due to requirements, but to wait time, and list number ranking. I had friends that went to go take sanitation exam, passed with high scores but listed at rank 10k and something. If this was a decade ago, a list with tens of thousands of applicant would not be like that. There is plenty of fallout coming out of the private sector in NYC especially amongst the local population. Due to either having a lack of education, or educated but lack the skills for professional private sector jobs, many are seeking jobs in public sector including transplants as well. Private sector jobs also cut back from benefits in this city which might want to make one go and try out public sector job. This is going to create a lot of bottlenecking for those to squeeze in to obtain a job with civil service agency or authority. Its not going to be hard only for blacks, but also hard for Hispanics, and ethnic whites as well because they all have to compete with each other for public sector jobs. The private sector needs to do a better job with hiring and training local people, but that cost money, the mayor should step in and get involved in this. I know someone who works on wall street and has a degree from a community college, when he leaves his job, his position must have a degree from an ivy league school, a top college like duke, or a masters from a lower acredited institution.
They've made the most serious efforts in improving public schools in gentrified neighborhoods like the Upper West Side or Dumbo.
With that said as civil servant retire the new people coming in at a minimum have to have bachelors (at least at HRA where my aunt worked). Automation has gotten rid of some civil servant jobs as well. Now if you need a new copy of your birth certificate or driver's license you can order online. You can change your driver's license address online too. If you lose your job, now you apply for unemployment online and it is direct deposited into your account. This has likely lead the city and state to eliminate clerical jobs.
The internet means unless it is a physical product you are ordering, mail has been eliminated because one can pay bills online, apply for jobs and colleges online, etc. This meant less revenues for the post office. Come to think of it you can apply for medicaid and food stamps online.
Immigrants in general have lower poverty rates than Black Americans, and this includes Black immigrants. Poverty rates among Black Americans likely are at this level because of those who moved into public housing. This has consequences for families for generations (public housing/welfare dependency).
Caribbean blacks have home ownership rates of 46%. HIGHER than American blacks.
Africans, being more recent arrivals have lower home ownership rates.
You admit that black Americans have higher poverty rates than black immigrants, even including recently arrived Africans.
I told you before that black immigrants don't like gov't poverty programs, and now even you see why.
Most notable that you ignored that median household incomes of black immigrants (both African and Caribbean) are over 30% higher than for black Americans, and that Caribbean poverty levels of 18% are almost identical to overall poverty rates in the USA.
So you cannot discuss immigrants having negative impacts on socio economic data whole glossing over the fact that it is even worse for US born blacks.
Note also that data for Caribbean blacks includes Afro Latinos, and Haitians, who have worse socio economic outcomes than for West Indians due to language issues. In fact the majority of the South American blacks are Guyanese, and so that might be more indicative of how black immigrants from the ENGLISH speaking Caribbean are doing. Notably of all the black immigrants, these are the ones who arrive speaking English and have intact the same slave heritage under Anglo American systems that black Americans have.
I always credit hard working black people or hard working Latino people. I have respect for anybody that works hard for a living regardless of any race or religion anybody that does not is an idiot.
Caribbean blacks have home ownership rates of 46%. HIGHER than American blacks.
Africans, being more recent arrivals have lower home ownership rates.
You admit that black Americans have higher poverty rates than black immigrants, even including recently arrived Africans.
I told you before that black immigrants don't like gov't poverty programs, and now even you see why.
If I can recall. A nyt article Stated that afro Latinos, afro Anglo Caribbean, and African immigrants had hire rates of going to an ivy league vs an African American.
I suppose many may have cashed out of homes in gentrifying neighborhoods like Ft. Greene, Harlem, or Bedstuy. I wonder how well they are faring in their new homes.
While I'm sure some families were among those leaving, I wonder if many of those living weren't approaching or already at retirement age. Property ownership in NYC can be expensive in retirement if one doesn't have sufficient income in retirement. As real estate prices skyrocketed in certain neighborhoods so did real estate taxes and this may have pressured lower middle class people, especially those in or near retirement to sell.
If some one bought a home in Wakefield, Rosedale, or Canarsie in the early 90s and sold it by 2006 one got a huge amount of equity. Homes bought for under $150k sold for 500k. Some one who arrived in FL, before the run up in prices of the Bush era, also got a good deal. Many folks were able to take their equity and buy property without having to take out a mortgage.
The poor suckers are the ones who bought these homes after 2006, as they will remain mainly under water, as prices have dropped by as much as 50%.
Most of the Caribbean blacks who left NYC would have been people in their late 30s to 50s, who were no where near retirement age. That description more closely fits the American blacks (and the US born descendants of earlier Caribbean migrations) who sold out of the neighborhoods that you describe.
NYWriter you aren't part of immigrant networks, and reveal this with most of your commentary on this subject. At least 50% of the FL non Hispanic Caribbean population, and virtually all of it in NC, GA, and TX are transplants from the northeast, which means metro NYC and from Boston.
If I can recall. A nyt article Stated that afro Latinos, afro Anglo Caribbean, and African immigrants had hire rates of going to an ivy league vs an African American.
It focused mainly on Africans, with some mention of SECOND generation Caribbean blacks. Any way this is of no significance when we understand that the TOTAL number of people included is in the low 4 figures, so not indicative of anything.
Those who identify as Afro Latinos are worse off than black Americans. Please note the phrase "those who identify".
The main factor differentiating American blacks from black immigrants are;
1. the large AA under class. Impoverished people are less likely to migrate, so obviously will be less representative of the black immigrant population. In fact African immigrants are very heavily either college educated, or people migrating to the USA with those goals. Clearly a very selective population.
2. As NYWriter's attitude indicates, humility isn't a factor for native born people. While a poorly educated Caribbean female will go and take care of white babies (as she don't want no welfare $$$), a native born black will consider that humiliating and prefer gov't money.
Years later the Caribbean female has moved on, becoming an LPN. NYWriter will sniff that she still remains low paid, but the fact that she is earning an income means that her household will have higher earnings than an equivalent native black.
It is really at the lower levels where the differences between native and immigrant blacks manifest. At the higher levels the US born blacks (either native, or children of immigrants) do better than the immigrants. They know the system better, are better networked into good occupations, and appear less "foreign". I submit that African immigrants play a high penalty for being "African", which is why they invest so much into their kids' success.
In addition, as NYWriter points out, generations of discrimination, combined with welfare programs, has really crushed the resolve of many native born blacks. This is the infamous 25-30% black under class which folks use to stigmatize the entire black population.
The South isn't necessarily better. Huge parts of the South have rural poverty. The better parts of the South are expensive to live in as well.
Lower income people in NYC don't drive. So there's an added expense right there. Southern states tend to have sales tax on food and medicine. So buying food when you have a tight budget may bite you. Lastly people forget the South is a huge region. There are rural areas where one can be two hours away from a major hospital. So if one has a stroke one can be DEAD before they get you to a stroke center. In NYC you're close to hospitals and other facilities.
It also depends on how you live. I frequently go out to restaurants, bars, museums, etc. NYC is much better with any of these than any place in the South. Particularly since we have restaurants with food from all around the world. When I want to travel NYC has three major airports. The cheap parts of the South you are pretty far from the airport.
There's an excellent retail sector here if you like shopping and these days there's great grocery store choice. For entertainment not only do you have the mainstream movie theaters, there are plenty of places to see independent films and plays.
Lower income New York City residents don't drive? Again WTF??? Where in NYC do you live?
Go to Staten Island, Queens, and Brooklyn where you'll find plenty of "lower income" households who drive. Can take you to Port Richmond, Mariners Harbor, Arlington, St. George (in particular in or around the Jersey Street Projects), heck around *ANY* of the NYCHA projects and show you "lower income" persons who not only drive but own a vehicle.
In case you are ignorant of the fact all of NYC is *NOT* Manhattan nor very well served by public transportation. Parts of Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island are public transit wastelands.
With that said as civil servant retire the new people coming in at a minimum have to have bachelors (at least at HRA where my aunt worked). Automation has gotten rid of some civil servant jobs as well..
This is exactly why blacks have to look beyond the civil service for employment. 80% of blacks (90% of black men) and 60-70% of the population over all don't have college degrees.
Employers claim that there are a shortage of people with certain skills which might require at most a 2 year degree. It is important for high school kids to be informed of those opportunities, as well as how to access the training needed, as most aren't college bound.
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