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We can see where this is going, what people want is what has happened in other areas of NYC government policies; that is admission of "minorities" based merely upon statistical proportional representation regardless of merit and or ability. We already have the FDNY bending over backwards to keep a female recruit that should have been failed out a long time ago.
For what it is worth the SCOTUS has recently affirmed quotas based merely upon such statistics are not a right nor USC protected. NYC has bent over backwards offering all sorts of extra "help" to "even the playing field" for blacks and Latino/Hispanic middle school kids to do better on the specialized high school exams; and we now have the results. Mandating schools take "X" or "Y" amount of students just because they happen to be black or whatever is *NOT* the answer.
We know the above from minority students that somehow get into elite (mostly white) prep schools or colleges. Even those who have the academic and other ability find it often a struggle. Those who did not and cannot keep up fail out despite all offers of help.
Quite honestly a bulk of the NYC public school system stinks, more so at the high school level. You have a handful of "top" elementary, middle and high schools that everyone and their mother wants to get their kids into; the rest are what they are.
What kills me is that people get so hot about Asians and Indians making up the majority of students at schools like Stuyvesant or whatever. Well a "DUH", those kids parents have figured things out a long time ago. Many of these Asian or Indian families are recent immigrants and they often live in the same bad areas as many blacks/Latinos, or those close to it. But somehow they manage to pull the grades and possess the skill needed to get into specialized high schools. Now why is that?
On Staten Island it pretty much is the same thing but with whites. These are not the children of wealth from private schools; but working and middle class parents on the Rock. They often cannot afford private and quite honestly many of those high schools on SI aren't that great. However SI Tech offers one of the best education deals around. Oh and these parents are PAYING TAXES to support said schools.
Like the SAT and similar exams you don't wake up in the 7th or 8th grade and decide to ace such exams. In particular ones heavy on math and sciences. Quite frankly if you haven't got the academic chops down by sixth grade or so, forget it. These exams measure cumulative knowledge. Yes, you can cram and work extra hard to bring up results, but that merely builds upon a foundation that is already laid.
What kills me is that people get so hot about Asians and Indians making up the majority of students at schools like Stuyvesant or whatever. Well a "DUH", those kids parents have figured things out a long time ago. Many of these Asian or Indian families are recent immigrants and they often live in the same bad areas as many blacks/Latinos, or those close to it. But somehow they manage to pull the grades and possess the skill needed to get into specialized high schools. Now why is that?
I'll play devil's advocate here. Suppose Stuy, Bronxsci and other specialized high schools were shut down, and NYC taxpayers no longer had to pay for the existence of schools wherein there's a high likelihood their kids won't be attending anyway. Will NYC cease to become an important hub for banking, finance, entertainment, tech etc. and if the answer is "no" then why should NYCers continue paying for a service that does not benefit them?
The Brian Lehrer show I think on NPR did feature a few weeks ago about a related topic for a school district in NJ. Atleast in that district which is wealthy they mentioned that the Asians in that district were largely professionals and educated. Perhaps not all Asians in NYC. I might have gotten that wrong, I heard it a few weeks ago. I think I made it clear I dont begrudge Asians their success. In my HS education I was in class with many Chinese and Vietnamese kids. Their ethic motivated the classmates who were not Asian. Also we helped them with English and Spanish or French as a second language. We got along and protected them from racial bullying as they were our mates. This issue with education is an education for me.
Yes a few of my coworkers live there and that is definitely elite just like other wealthy white neighborhoods, but not reflective of the situation in NYC. Growing up on the BUshwick border, to me the biggest hurdle to doing well in school and in life for anyone of any race including Asians was the don't give an F*** attitude and when kids don't do well they themselves don't seem to care. Frankly that attitude was more pervasive for certain groups and if an Asian kid had that attitude chances are they did poorly in school as well. Let me know if I"m wrong because that was what I saw growing up. Ultimately to improve one's chances at doing good in school kids need to be disciplined. When it's time to do homework you need to get it done each and every night. When it's time to sleep you need to get a good nights rest or else it's harder to focus the next day. When it's time for an exam, study if you're not sure you'd do well, if you know the stuff just quickly glance over it. Those are trivial things, but hard to do many times. While it's a great achievement I wouldn't worry too much about not getting into an elite high school. Life is a marathon not some short sprint to the finish line. There will always be people who have this and that advantage especially the rich and connected, but it's no reason to give up for kids.
I'll play devil's advocate here. Suppose Stuy, Bronxsci and other specialized high schools were shut down, and NYC taxpayers no longer had to pay for the existence of schools wherein there's a high likelihood their kids won't be attending anyway. Will NYC cease to become an important hub for banking, finance, entertainment, tech etc. and if the answer is "no" then why should NYCers continue paying for a service that does not benefit them anyway?
New York City residents already pay for tons of services they "don't use". Do you go to a HHC hospital or related healthcare facility? Been sent to Riker's? Stayed at a shelter? Been provided free or reduced cost housing because you are homeless and or have HIV/AIDS?????? Did you go to a CUNY college?
The specialized high schools are a direct result of New York City seeking to offer the children of the middle and lower classes the same choices and chances as those from a families of means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuyvesant_High_School
Much like the CUNY system we all pay for the specialized high schools as we do with regular ones; however only top tier students get into say Hunter, same as with the better high schools.
New York City residents already pay for tons of services they "don't use". Do you go to a HHC hospital or related healthcare facility? Been sent to Riker's? Stayed at a shelter? Been provided free or reduced cost housing because you are homeless and or have HIV/AIDS?????? Did you go to a CUNY college?
I'm not sure if NYCers don't benefit from these services. Except for CUNY (which enrolls far more students that Stuy), one could say these are bribes or ransoms to prevent certain elements of society from inflicting violence on the law abiding. As for hospitals, wait till people get old and start calling Bernie Sanders about how "unfair" life is now they are too old to work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal
The specialized high schools are a direct result of New York City seeking to offer the children of the middle and lower classes the same choices and chances as those from a families of means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuyvesant_High_School
I agree they offer chances. But what economic purpose do they serve? To put it another way, what are the consequences to NYCers if they were to shut down? In my former company, for example, I had Asian and Eastern European coworkers who attended Bayside HS, FHHS, and Russel Sage JHS and turned out fine. So why do New Yorkers urgently need Stuy and pay for it?
Furthermore if anyone should be getting all hot about being "under represented" as NYC's specialized high schools it should be whites. Aside from Brooklyn Latin, Staten Island Tech and Stuyvesant their numbers are pretty low otherwise.
Why is that?
Again white parents in parts of Brooklyn, Staten Island and Manhattan (or else the kids are willing to travel) have figured out what is best for their children *and* their budgets.
You don't see many from the traditional "prep school" circuit sending their sons and daughters to NYC high schools, specialized or not. Leaving aside Hunter of course, most better off whites white while may send their kids to a top rated local public or elementary school, that is where things stop. Some only will do elementary and send their kid to private prep onwards.
With the current trend of wealthy (but often strapped) whites/transplants moving into NYC in droves *and* having/raising children it is going to be interesting to see how all this plays out in a generation or two. Areas like Brooklyn do not have enough top public schools (yet), and only perhaps one or two "top" high schools.
Bugsy I dont think anyone discussing it has advocated lowering standards for hispanics or blacks. Nor do I think the City will. I also disagree that children cant improve after 6th grade. Children are all diferent. My daughter for example was 5'9 in 5th grade and got bullied. She was teased and even beat up for it. She sort of checked out emotionally and was afraid to go to school. This fear of school lasted a few more grades. She is in HS now in the City and is happy and now doing better. Kids are all diferent and when encouraged can do great things.
I'll play devil's advocate here. Suppose Stuy, Bronxsci and other specialized high schools were shut down, and NYC taxpayers no longer had to pay for the existence of schools wherein there's a high likelihood their kids won't be attending anyway. Will NYC cease to become an important hub for banking, finance, entertainment, tech etc. and if the answer is "no" then why should NYCers continue paying for a service that does not benefit them anyway?
You will not be able to solve the academic divide across races if you do not address the past. Since ancient times, Asians and more specifically Chinese have been taught that the path to prosperity for a poor person is through test taking (civil services examination system). Many poor Asians will devote all their resources for their kids to succeed in taking exams. In addition, the impact on this country's war on drugs are still being felt in the Hispanic and Black community.
Many of this elite schools are overrated being as life is not always about test taking and individuality. Many of the kids who attend this elite schools struggle once they leave the academic field, because many lack the social skills to work in a team environment and struggle to develop a network.
I agree moreso the last paragraph here. As for the initial paragraph, it certainly seems Asian families prioritize the essential and necessary practice to do well on the standardized tests/school entrance exams.
I'll play devil's advocate here. Suppose Stuy, Bronxsci and other specialized high schools were shut down, and NYC taxpayers no longer had to pay for the existence of schools wherein there's a high likelihood their kids won't be attending anyway. Will NYC cease to become an important hub for banking, finance, entertainment, tech etc. and if the answer is "no" then why should NYCers continue paying for a service that does not benefit them?
Only if you insist on increasing the disproportionate amount of high paying jobs going to none NYC taxpayers. Economic mobility in this city has been on a decline with rising cost of living. Being average has not been a viable solution since the 90's. Most NYC taxpayers were never prepared to compete in a global employee market. While the rich can turn to private schools, the average New Yorker will be forced to leave the city and be replaced by a affluent family who can afford private school. Manhattan already feels like a gated community for the rich, while in Brooklyn and Queens along the east river it is slowly turning that way. Only place I can consistently run into a native New Yorker is in civil services.
Even the average person I encounter that went to this elite public high schools and got a decent paying job ($100K+ a year) needs to live with their parents until their late 20's to afford to put a down payment. Many of them become bitter, being as they were promised the world and were told they are a very special snowflake because they went to this elite public high schools.
Last edited by NYer23; 03-06-2016 at 07:20 PM..
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