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Why do you think that has happened?
Especially since much of those first Caribbean immigrants were working- and middle-class.
Its a classical immigrant's tale. The first wave of immigrants will be the strivers. These were the ones who arrived in the 60s and 70s. They set the stage for the less adventurous, and more risk averse.
But here is another reality. Those arriving in the early years found cheaper housing and more job opportunities for people with a basic secondary education.
So they bought homes, and did the classical Caribbean "two jobs plus going to evening classes". So they gradually attained upward mobility, and definitely had middle class values, even if they didn't work in middle class jobs. They invested much into their kids' education.
40 years later, housing is expensive, education is expensive, and many of those entry level back office jobs have been automated, or moved to other parts of the USA, or even overseas. The Caribbean immigrants who arrived later, were also more likely to have been devastated by the real estate bubble. They were the ones who paid for that first wave to flee to FL or GA or TX, when they sold their homes are a considerable gain (buying at $150k and selling at $650k).
So we have the new immigrant, who lacks the resiliency of the first wave, maybe having working class, rather then middle class values, so less aggressive in seeking upward mobility for themselves and/or their kids. And facing huger barriers in finding housing, employment, or education.
In the meantime that first wave is enjoying their retirement (or pre-retirement) years in FL, as they would have left before the bubble of 10 years ago.
Canarsie will be one of those neighborhoods that probably won't have influx of whites, as it's too far from Manhattan by subway.
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Not really. Only 30 minutes. As it is whites are only 10 minutes away near the Junction, so what will prevent them from moving further down the line as Bushwick/BedStuy rents continue to explode?
Canarsie (the areas near the L) will be better then the ENY NYCHA neighborhoods. I do agree that the more remote parts of Canarsie/Flatlands/East Flatbush, will remain non white, though not necessarily black. And then there is talk of extending the 4 from Utica to points further south.
Not really. Only 30 minutes. As it is whites are only 10 minutes away near the Junction, so what will prevent them from moving further down the line as Bushwick/BedStuy rents continue to explode?
Canarsie (the areas near the L) will be better then the ENY NYCHA neighborhoods. I do agree that the more remote parts of Canarsie/Flatlands/East Flatbush, will remain non white, though not necessarily black. And then there is talk of extending the 4 from Utica to points further south.
The Rockaway Parkway station is only 30 minutes from Manhattan?
And it seems like Canarsie is a pretty big neighborhood with a big chunk of it not being close to subway stations.
It's not simply a distance issue. Canarsie is essentially suburban and most transplants are moving here to live in urban environments. Why buy a 1920's row home/bungalow and need a car to get anywhere when I can just stay put in Middle America? Besides, Bed-Stuy and Crown Heights aren't fully gentrified yet, so it'll be another 15-20 years before people would really even think about anything much further east than Broadway Junction (save maybe Cypress Hills). Plus, I still think Flatbush (west of Nostrand) Is next in line. Better trains, the park is right there, and better architecture.
It's not simply a distance issue. Canarsie is essentially suburban and most transplants are moving here to live in urban environments. Why buy a 1920's row home/bungalow and need a car to get anywhere when I can just stay put in Middle America? Besides, Bed-Stuy and Crown Heights aren't fully gentrified yet, so it'll be another 15-20 years before people would really even think about anything much further east than Broadway Junction (save maybe Cypress Hills). Plus, I still think Flatbush (west of Nostrand) Is next in line. Better trains, the park is right there, and better architecture.
Even 15 years ago talk of gentrification of Bedstuy was laughable. Talk of whites moving to Broadway Junction would have been hysterical.
But the reality is people live where they can afford.
Transplants DO move to suburban environments btw. People act as if all transplants are 21 year old idiots obsessed with going to the coolest bars.
Transplants who work in education (teachers or administration), hospitals/medical sector, government agencies/non profit WORK all over the city so they aren't all going to live in Manhattan or the established hipster parts. Some of them do already live in non "traditional areas" and you'll have a lot more of that.
It's not simply a distance issue. Canarsie is essentially suburban and most transplants are moving here to live in urban environments. Why buy a 1920's row home/bungalow and need a car to get anywhere when I can just stay put in Middle America? Besides, Bed-Stuy and Crown Heights aren't fully gentrified yet, so it'll be another 15-20 years before people would really even think about anything much further east than Broadway Junction (save maybe Cypress Hills). Plus, I still think Flatbush (west of Nostrand) Is next in line. Better trains, the park is right there, and better architecture.
I would say about every 10 years the gentrification wave moves a stop further east on the A. 20 years ago it was Hoyt-Schemerhorn, 10 years ago it was at Nostrand, and now it's at Utica Avenue. I hate to say it but I can tell who's getting off where.
So in 2026 we can talk about who's getting off at the Junction.
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"The man who sleeps on the floor, can never fall out of bed." -Martin Lawrence
Its a classical immigrant's tale. The first wave of immigrants will be the strivers. These were the ones who arrived in the 60s and 70s. They set the stage for the less adventurous, and more risk averse.
But here is another reality. Those arriving in the early years found cheaper housing and more job opportunities for people with a basic secondary education.
So they bought homes, and did the classical Caribbean "two jobs plus going to evening classes". So they gradually attained upward mobility, and definitely had middle class values, even if they didn't work in middle class jobs. They invested much into their kids' education.
40 years later, housing is expensive, education is expensive, and many of those entry level back office jobs have been automated, or moved to other parts of the USA, or even overseas. The Caribbean immigrants who arrived later, were also more likely to have been devastated by the real estate bubble. They were the ones who paid for that first wave to flee to FL or GA or TX, when they sold their homes are a considerable gain (buying at $150k and selling at $650k).
So we have the new immigrant, who lacks the resiliency of the first wave, maybe having working class, rather then middle class values, so less aggressive in seeking upward mobility for themselves and/or their kids. And facing huger barriers in finding housing, employment, or education.
In the meantime that first wave is enjoying their retirement (or pre-retirement) years in FL, as they would have left before the bubble of 10 years ago.
To even dream of getting an education, especially an advanced degree one either needs to be able to pay in cash, or one has to either get student loans, be a veteran and get assistance from the GI Bill/government, or be able to successfully navigate the other LIMITED programs out there. And we all know PELL grants and other GRANTS out there are extremely LIMITED these days.
The other things you mention such as offshoring of work and automation have impacted the white working class to the point where suicides and substance abuse to the point of death have become increasingly common. Of course these things would make it hard for new immigrants, especially if they don't have good educations.
CUNY was and still IS an important source of upward mobility for Caribbean and other immigrants, and other working class people in NYC. That's gone up in price from the days when it used to be FREE. The earlier wave of Caribbean immigrants moved to NYC when CUNY was FREE and got to get degrees for FREE. This went away by the late 70s.
One of my aunt's used to work for HRA (now deceased). In those days to get a job at HRA you just needed to pass the civil service exam, so many African Americans, Caribbeans, Black Hispanics, and Africans got those jobs. It was an important pathway to the middle class for Blacks to get middle class jobs, whether immigrant or native. However to get a job at HRA these days one needs a bachelor's degree, so this is CLOSED to new immigrants who CaribNY pointed out are more working class. Stricter requirements for civil service jobs hurt them.
The Canarsie whites have fled most parts of NYC. To get that "ethnic" flavor you have to go to LI, or NJ.
I will not be shocked to see whites, priced out of other parts of Brooklyn, looking at Canarsie. Its not that far on the L.
Thing about Canarsie is it didn't have long of a "heyday" as it were.
Started out as a place mainly of poor Italian-Americans it took off population wise from about the 1950's through 1960's and perhaps part of the 1970's as Italians and Jewish families fled ENY and Brownsville that were fast becoming hoods. By the 1980's and certainly the 1990's it was all over as whites fled in response to many factors, much of it having to deal with the perception of the arrival of things they had fled (blacks, Latinos, crime, etc....) other parts of Brooklyn.
Bet few know that Canarsie had forced public school desegregation which did not go down very well with the locals.
I close friend has lived in Chcago all her life and she has said that Chicago is the most segregated city in the US.
It goes much further than just black and white - Italians live here - Puerto Ricans live there - Irish live over there - Asian live there - Blacks over there, "other" whites live there, Mexicans live there, Russians live over there etc...
And if you're not Italian (she is Sicilian) you had better not be coming into an Italian neighborhood unless with a an Italian friend. I made her promise to stay close by me since I'm an "other" There are definite boundaries. There are also areas where anyone can live.
Just a comment - I really think this is getting much more relaxed since many transplants aren't aware of "the rules".
Last edited by Umbria; 05-31-2016 at 08:53 PM..
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There are definite boundaries. There are also areas where anyone can live.
