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You seem to combine a lot of Brooklyn neighborhoods together. The DUMBO/down brooklyn is
a lot bigger area than Flushing or LIC. so it is not a fair comparison.
No, it is not a much larger area. Both DUMBO and downtown Brooklyn have very small areas which is partially why I combined them. Learn how to use Google Maps or some other reasonable tool. That's two tiny neighborhoods next to each other. I think including Old Fulton St though it's to the west of the Brooklyn Bridge also makes sense.
And the borders I used for downtown Flushing by including Queens Botanic Garden and parts of the park is pretty generous. Though again, I'm not including Flushing in the discussion because it's not really reasonable to say it's an extension of the Manhattan CBD.
True, flushing is a city by itself and its real estate is less connected to the rest of the city,
but more connected to money from China
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
No, it is not a much larger area. Both DUMBO and downtown Brooklyn have very small areas which is partially why I combined them. Learn how to use Google Maps or some other reasonable tool.
And the borders I used for Flushing by including Queens Botanic Garden and parts of the park is pretty generous. Though again, I'm not including Flushing in the discussion because it's not really reasonable to say it's an extension of the Manhattan CBD.
How does DUMBO not have a lot of jobs? It’s a tiny neighborhood, but has the headquarters of Etsy, Huge, Big Spaceship, West Elm, and a ton of other smaller companies. If you work in tech in almost any capacity in NYC, then you are going to be aware of how much employment there is in DUMBO. Don’t pass off your disdain for the area as actual fact.
I don't have disdain for Dumbo, I just don't think it has the number of jobs to be considered a CBD. It is far too small of a neighborhood anyway, and too excluded from the rest of Brooklyn. It is all tucked away blocked in by overpasses etc. Navy Yards would be another story.
True, flushing is a city by itself and its real estate is less connected to the rest of the city,
but more connected to money from China
Right. It's also connected to a large South Korean wealth base and first-generation Asian-Americans who did well for themselves and wanted to stick around family. It basically makes use of a lot of the resources a much larger city has such as its airport and various services, but is still pretty independent. I believe a lot more NYC neighborhoods were like this in the past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Dale
I don't have disdain for Dumbo, I just don't think it has the number of jobs to be considered a CBD. It is far too small of a neighborhood anyway, and too excluded from the rest of Brooklyn. It is all tucked away blocked in by overpasses etc. Navy Yards would be another story.
I think you probably just didn't know. DUMBO has a ridiculous amount of jobs for such a small area. It's not that cut off anymore as development has been pretty intensely built up and you will see people walking and biking the streets that link it and downtown Brooklyn at all times during the day with I think a decent part of that due to City Tech. Some of those companies, including Etsy, are actually in that weird patch in between and WeWork's location there lists itself as being part of the made up DUMBO Heights (lol!). I'm pretty sure all the little lots between these two are going to see development soon though if they aren't already current under development.
Navy Yard is a lot more excluded from the rest of the city and downtown Brooklyn than DUMBO is. It's the BQE and a lot of projects without much floor level retail or commercial to break things up to its west and south where it might actually connect with DUMBO or downtown Brooklyn. It also has really little in transit access though I think there's talk of getting a ferry station.
Interestingly enough, LIC also has a bifurcation though less severe with the more commercial side around Court Square and Queens Plaza and the residential oriented waterfront development.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 11-02-2017 at 03:35 PM..
Right. It's also connected to a large South Korean wealth base and first-generation Asian-Americans who did well for themselves and wanted to stick around family. It basically makes use of a lot of the resources a much larger city has such as its airport and various services, but is still pretty independent. I believe a lot more NYC neighborhoods were like this in the past.
I think you probably just didn't know. DUMBO has a ridiculous amount of jobs for such a small area. It's not that cut off anymore as development has been pretty intensely built up and you will see people walking and biking the streets that link it and downtown Brooklyn at all times during the day with I think a decent part of that due to City Tech. Some of those companies, including Etsy, are actually in that weird patch in between and WeWork's location there lists itself as being part of the made up DUMBO Heights (lol!). I'm pretty sure all the little lots between these two are going to see development soon though if they aren't already current under development.
Navy Yard is a lot more excluded from the rest of the city and downtown Brooklyn than DUMBO is. It's the BQE and a lot of projects without much floor level retail or commercial to break things up to its west and south where it might actually connect with DUMBO or downtown Brooklyn. It also has really little in transit access though I think there's talk of getting a ferry station.
Interestingly enough, LIC also has a bifurcation though less severe with the more commercial side around Court Square and Queens Plaza and the residential oriented waterfront development.
Whenever I go to Dumbo I'm just unimpressed. It's great for the first 30 mins, but then it quickly becomes a bore. Williamsburg and Bushwick have a lot more going on. Plus how many buildings in Dumbo are actually open for these type of jobs? If they'd set the Nazy Yard free, and don't sell out to developers, so much more potential there. It would also be the crossroad between Dumbo, Williamsburg and Fort Greene/Clinton Hill. I'd say that the geographical equivalence of Dumbo in Downtown Flushing would have a higher FTE than Dumbo.
I don't know what the deal is with LIC, but the amount of development is just plain silly.
Whenever I go to Dumbo I'm just unimpressed. It's great for the first 30 mins, but then it quickly becomes a bore. Williamsburg and Bushwick have a lot more going on. Plus how many buildings in Dumbo are actually open for these type of jobs? If they'd set the Nazy Yard free, and don't sell out to developers, so much more potential there. It would also be the crossroad between Dumbo, Williamsburg and Fort Greene/Clinton Hill. I'd say that the geographical equivalence of Dumbo in Downtown Flushing would have a higher FTE than Dumbo.
I don't know what the deal is with LIC, but the amount of development is just plain silly.
I definitely understand not liking DUMBO or downtown Brooklyn, but that wasn’t what you were arguing.
The Navy Yard has a lot of potential especially as they’re constructing so much housing on the south side of Flushing Avenue where people working there can live. I think the transit issue needs to be fixed as the B57 is infrequent and goes down to a crawl once it passes east of Williamsburg Street, the B69 is infrequent and the subway stations are a distance away. Most people I know who work there bike. The Navy Yard could also use another western entrance. It’ll be interesting to see what happens when that ferry stop comes around next year.
Just out of curiosity, when was the last time you were in DUMBO? I think it was you in another thread talking about the area around the Javits Center on the far west side of Manhattan and how empty and rundown it was, but weren't aware how much development had gone in since you were last there. This might be the same case now.
I think it’s hard to tell if the equivalent area in downtown Flushing would have the same number of jobs. Downtown Flushing has a lot of service industry jobs and far more than DUMBO does (which accounts for a lot more restaurants and shops), but probably has less for the equivalent land area of dedicated office space which doesn’t need a bunch of physical space for its clientele. It’d be interesting to try to get a count of that.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 11-02-2017 at 04:38 PM..
I'm including DUMBO to make the comparisons physically closer in size and character (to include the waterfront and much of the new construction and development).
I think that dumbo and the waterfront area are kind of removed from downtown Brooklyn. It's a bit of a walk from the subway and down a hill. And the new development/construction around Brooklyn bridge park seems to be more residential/recreational (with a hotel or two, I think) rather than commercial. So I don't know if it should be part of the conversation if you're talking about Central business districts.
I probably wouldn't include the waterfront either for LIC since that part (the Vernon Blvd stop) is residential. For Jersey City, I think I've only been to the first stop or two on the PATH train by the waterfront and those seem to have many office buildings. Don't know about the rest of Jersey City though.
I don't know. I guess it's however you want to define it since you're talking about potential?
I think that dumbo and the waterfront area are kind of removed from downtown Brooklyn. It's a bit of a walk from the subway and down a hill. And the new development/construction around Brooklyn bridge park seems to be more residential/recreational (with a hotel or two, I think) rather than commercial. So I don't know if it should be part of the conversation if you're talking about Central business districts.
I probably wouldn't include the waterfront either for LIC since that part (the Vernon Blvd stop) is residential. For Jersey City, I think I've only been to the first stop or two on the PATH train by the waterfront and those seem to have many office buildings. Don't know about the rest of Jersey City though.
I don't know. I guess it's however you want to define it since you're talking about potential?
It’s pretty nebulous. Brooklyn Bridge Park isn’t very porous for its western stretch until you hit Atlantic Avenue because of topography, but the part from Squibb Park on north with the recently opened development is more connected. It’s basically three main routes between DUMBO and downtown Brooklyn at the “throat” where it gets most constricted and that’s Old Fulton, Washington, and Jay St with a few smaller paths that kind of snake a bit. I think just a couple years ago it was a lot less connected, but it’s changed really rapidly in that time period. It still has lots that aren’t developed and there will always be some level of disconnect because of the freeway and bridges, but it’s really different than a couple years ago which is interesing to see. I was pretty down on the ferry for its high cost per rider subsidy (and still think it’s too high), but it really seems to make a difference on a street level. People seem to be using it to go from the ferry to downtown Brooklyn and/or people are living in DUMBO and walking to downtown Brooklyn.
I’m definitely much more familiar with downtown Brooklyn and DUMBO (though strangely enough, not Flushing) than I am with the others, though I’m having a hard time thinking of the cross-section of people who would be familiar with all or at least two of these, especially downtown Jersey City.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 11-02-2017 at 07:42 PM..
Flushing has Willet Point, Tangram, and Flushing commons, just to name a few huge projects.
It also has many medium sized development projects.
Of course, I know LIC has a lot of projects, but those projects are mostly for residential. It does not have the retail/office/entertainment. The same is for Brooklyn
Downtown Brooklyn definitely has more new development compared to Flushing. The only neighborhood outside of Manhattan that can compete is LIC. I would probably include Williamsburg/Greenpoint over Flushing as well, when it comes to new projects.
Here is a brief rundown, I am sure I've missed some:
Brooklyn Point (City Point Phase 3) - CityPoint development alone has more new commercial space than anything in Flushing, and perhaps the same amount as all of new commercial space u/c in Flushing combined). 9 DeKalb - first supertall outside of Manhattan in NYC metro area. 1 Willoughby Square - 600ft office tower (no residential). 141 Willoughby - mixed use 80 Flatbush - mixed use (should be 2nd tallest after 9 DeKalb) 33 Bond St. - this was just recently completed I believe. 208 Tillary St. 10 Nevins St. 11 Hoyt St./Macys redevelopment - to include 300,000 sq ft Macys store. 237 Duffield
Plus a bunch of other hotels and residential in 20-30 floor range, residential around Barclays Center, etc. Most of residential in dt Brooklyn has commercial/retail component on the ground levels as well.
Last edited by Gantz; 11-03-2017 at 09:26 AM..
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