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Old 12-29-2017, 07:40 PM
 
3,960 posts, read 3,563,424 times
Reputation: 2025

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I wonder if anyone has dealt with this before:

We recently moved into a coop apartment that we bought a few months ago.

Prior to that I was renting an apartment for 10 years, so I have no experience living in a coop.

In our rental apartment, the boiler was crappy so a few times every winter the boiler would break and we would have no heat and hot water for a day or so. I would have to call the (very unhelpful) super and/or management and within a day the heat would be back on again.

Once I actually had to send a vaguely threatening email (NYC legal limit for indoor temperatures, etc.), but again, within a day we had heat again.

Well, our coop building is prewar. It has historically been overheated - everyone (including us) had TOO much heat in their apartments, to the point where you had to open the windows and it was still boiling.

Just last week the coop building decided to install a new "system" to better "balance" the heating in the building.

As a result, quite a few of us are now too COLD in our apartments (very little heat coming up through the radiators). (I know this because we have a google group).

We have all complained to the management and also the super, and...four days in and still very little heat! On the coldest days of the year this week!

I've been emailing management.
Finally today I called the management company. They were like "we're working on it".
He sounded kind of lackadaisical, and said, "Look it's a big building, it's hard to balance enough heat for every apartment without too much heat for some."

I asked when this might be rectified because we are looking at a long/3 day weekend. Again, he just said "we're working on it."

I then said that as the temperatures seem to be below legal NYC limits (one woman took the temperature in her apartment and it was 57 - legal limit is 62 degrees at night and 68 during the day),if it doesn't get fixed soon I may have to think about taking legal action.

(Needless to say, he then got off the phone, saying he "had to go.")

In the past, I knew what to do because with a rental you can threaten housing court or write a legalese letter, and the landlord will increase/fix the heat.

But...I own the coop. I can't sue my own coop, can I?
I can't even threaten to sue my own coop.
So what leverage do I - or the rest of us - have to get the coop board and management to do something about the heating situation?
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Old 12-29-2017, 08:06 PM
 
33,329 posts, read 46,766,348 times
Reputation: 14019
My take on the whole heating situation is -

The landlords are quite honestly in a pinch. Utilities are getting too expensive for them to keep up with I believe. Need more green energy solutions.
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Old 12-29-2017, 08:12 PM
 
31,576 posts, read 26,419,637 times
Reputation: 24405
Sounds like you are living in a very old building with a steam heating system that is woefully in need of an overhaul and maybe maintenance.


Many steam heating systems in pre-war buildings were dramatically oversized for various reasons. Fast forward to modern times with new windows and other energy efficiency efforts the boiler is now putting out too much heat. A good heating contractor will revaluate the current heating needs of building, then suggest modifications to bring things in balance.


That being said often it can take several trials and fails before any steam heating system is totally balanced. This being the first really cold stretch of winter obviously is a test for any heating system.


You can call 311/file a heating complaint which the city will investigate. But yes, the charges or whatever will go to the co-op corporation that owns building which means *you* and the other shareholders. That being said people sue their co-ops all the time.


Unlike a rental building the managing agents of a co-op work for *you* the shareholders. If you aren't getting satisfaction go to the board and or head of and make your position clear. If a polite word in their ears does not bring results, ask your personal attorney to write a letter/get involved.


Sadly this is your welcome to cooperative living; and you now see why so many are flocking to condos and or buying private homes instead. Living by majority rule isn't for everyone, and often co-op boards turn into petty fiefdoms that seem out for no one but themselves.


https://cooperator.com/article/qa-wheres-the-heat


https://www.brownstoner.com/forum-ar...at-rights-for/


Q. & A.; Getting Help With Inadequate Heat - The New York Times


https://www.habitatmag.com/Publicati...o-op-Apartment
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Old 12-29-2017, 08:31 PM
 
6,844 posts, read 3,910,004 times
Reputation: 15848
Having lived in Brooklyn apartments for about 10 years I developed some heating solutions. They are not elegant but will keep you warmer until the heating issue is resolved.
1. Cover your windows and molding with thin painting plastic drop cloths (usually about a dollar each). You can cut them slightly larger than your window frames and attach them with thumbtacks if you have wooden molding, or with masking tape. If you have a draft you will see the drop cloth fill up with air like a sail. That will create an air barrier that will keep the heat in the room and the drafts out. If you have blinds you keep them inside the tarp and make a small scotch tape reinforced slits for the blinds cords and wands. Your curtains would go over the tarp. This method generally raised my room temperatures by 10 degrees.
2. If you have radiators and aren't getting enough steam, unscrew the regulator from the radiator which will create a low pressure condition, allowing you to get more steam than others. You may have to cover the opening with a towel at first if it sputters water with the steam.
3. Buy some electric heaters to supplement your radiator heat.
Even after I bought my own house, I found my heating system worked fine until the temperatures dropped into the teens. So I continued to use the plastic drop cloths and space heaters when it got really cold like it is now in NYC.
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:38 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
1,898 posts, read 2,805,102 times
Reputation: 2558
New York City

Daytime (6AM – 10PM): When the temperature dips below 55 degrees outside, the internal temperature of any given apartment must be kept at or above 68 degrees.

Night (10pm – 6AM): When the temperature falls below 40 degrees outside, it is mandated that the interior temperature of an apartment must be kept at or above 55 degrees.

If you feel as though you are not being provided with adequate heat (if this is a routine occurrence, and not a result of emergency boiler work or for major work such as a complete boiler replacement), it would behoove the tenants to call Management, and if they do not respond, to alert 311 so that they can step in on what may be a systematic issue.
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:51 AM
 
31,576 posts, read 26,419,637 times
Reputation: 24405
Quote:
Originally Posted by reenzz View Post
New York City

Daytime (6AM – 10PM): When the temperature dips below 55 degrees outside, the internal temperature of any given apartment must be kept at or above 68 degrees.

Night (10pm – 6AM): When the temperature falls below 40 degrees outside, it is mandated that the interior temperature of an apartment must be kept at or above 55 degrees.

If you feel as though you are not being provided with adequate heat (if this is a routine occurrence, and not a result of emergency boiler work or for major work such as a complete boiler replacement), it would behoove the tenants to call Management, and if they do not respond, to alert 311 so that they can step in on what may be a systematic issue.

This is a co-op building with resident shareholders, not tenants.


OP knows what the required temps should be and has contacted building management. Sadly for her/him things aren't moving quickly hence post in this forum.


When you own in a co-op things can be great, or not so much. It really does depend upon how proactive the board is and of course the staff.


Unlike a rental a co-op hires their own staff/building management. This can make things tricky because you don't want a situation where there are say forty people (all shareholders) telling these people what to do; that is someone needs to be in charge, at least when it comes to the big things like heat, hot water, etc....


Ideally if building management isn't on the case fast enough or giving satisfaction in a co-op situation it should be taken up with the board president or whoever on that body was elected to oversee building maintenance.
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
25,341 posts, read 36,827,738 times
Reputation: 12729
We had our system recently "re-calibrated" with new boilers, and we get far less heat than 2 years ago. It is better than before with serious overheating, but at these temperatures we hold 68 instead of 72. This is a bit chilly and precludes sitting around in boxer shorts. So now I am typing in flannel lounging pants and a heavy flannel shirt.


Here's part of the problem: A system must be sized to accommodate a certain lowest temperature. In years past, the number must have been -50 degrees, wasteful. If it is sized for 20 degrees, and the temperature falls to 10 degrees, it will be unable to give everyone a cozy 72 degrees.


shoshanarose,
Does you co-op provide free electricity to co-operators? Mine does. The answer to staying warmer might be a tiny $20 ceramic heater for some supplemental heat. They work beautifully to boost you 5 or 10 degrees. If we go 2 degrees cooler I will dig mine out of the closet.
Of course, if you pay your own Con-Ed bill, then this approach is a no-no.


Yes, you can sue your co-op but it might not be wise if you plan on staying long. Another thought is to try to get ON the co-op. (I am close to the latter but I don't know if I want the aggravation.)

Last edited by Kefir King; 12-30-2017 at 07:19 AM..
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:18 AM
 
Location: New York, NY
12,740 posts, read 8,157,945 times
Reputation: 7045
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobspez View Post
Having lived in Brooklyn apartments for about 10 years I developed some heating solutions. They are not elegant but will keep you warmer until the heating issue is resolved.
1. Cover your windows and molding with thin painting plastic drop cloths (usually about a dollar each). You can cut them slightly larger than your window frames and attach them with thumbtacks if you have wooden molding, or with masking tape. If you have a draft you will see the drop cloth fill up with air like a sail. That will create an air barrier that will keep the heat in the room and the drafts out. If you have blinds you keep them inside the tarp and make a small scotch tape reinforced slits for the blinds cords and wands. Your curtains would go over the tarp. This method generally raised my room temperatures by 10 degrees.
2. If you have radiators and aren't getting enough steam, unscrew the regulator from the radiator which will create a low pressure condition, allowing you to get more steam than others. You may have to cover the opening with a towel at first if it sputters water with the steam.
3. Buy some electric heaters to supplement your radiator heat.
Even after I bought my own house, I found my heating system worked fine until the temperatures dropped into the teens. So I continued to use the plastic drop cloths and space heaters when it got really cold like it is now in NYC.
Yes. My apartment has a temperature regulator in it and it really helps. However I have balcony doors that can get very drafty in these temperatures. I just take some thick recycling bags and put them by the bottom of the doors to keep out the draft. It helps a ton. Still a little draft, but I sleep like a baby. The heat that I get is still sufficient so it isn't too hot or too cold.
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:25 AM
 
12,340 posts, read 26,009,751 times
Reputation: 10349
Just wanted to add to the note about the plastic sheeting that if you have metal windowframes, magnets will hold up the plastic, no tape involved. Sorry I don't have any suggestions about the heat itself. I live in a prewar coop and we are always warm here.
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Old 12-30-2017, 08:28 AM
 
8,170 posts, read 4,256,155 times
Reputation: 11747
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoshanarose View Post
I wonder if anyone has dealt with this before:

We recently moved into a coop apartment that we bought a few months ago.

Prior to that I was renting an apartment for 10 years, so I have no experience living in a coop.

In our rental apartment, the boiler was crappy so a few times every winter the boiler would break and we would have no heat and hot water for a day or so. I would have to call the (very unhelpful) super and/or management and within a day the heat would be back on again.

Once I actually had to send a vaguely threatening email (NYC legal limit for indoor temperatures, etc.), but again, within a day we had heat again.

Well, our coop building is prewar. It has historically been overheated - everyone (including us) had TOO much heat in their apartments, to the point where you had to open the windows and it was still boiling.

Just last week the coop building decided to install a new "system" to better "balance" the heating in the building.

As a result, quite a few of us are now too COLD in our apartments (very little heat coming up through the radiators). (I know this because we have a google group).

We have all complained to the management and also the super, and...four days in and still very little heat! On the coldest days of the year this week!

I've been emailing management.
Finally today I called the management company. They were like "we're working on it".
He sounded kind of lackadaisical, and said, "Look it's a big building, it's hard to balance enough heat for every apartment without too much heat for some."

I asked when this might be rectified because we are looking at a long/3 day weekend. Again, he just said "we're working on it."

I then said that as the temperatures seem to be below legal NYC limits (one woman took the temperature in her apartment and it was 57 - legal limit is 62 degrees at night and 68 during the day),if it doesn't get fixed soon I may have to think about taking legal action.

(Needless to say, he then got off the phone, saying he "had to go.")

In the past, I knew what to do because with a rental you can threaten housing court or write a legalese letter, and the landlord will increase/fix the heat.

But...I own the coop. I can't sue my own coop, can I?
I can't even threaten to sue my own coop.
So what leverage do I - or the rest of us - have to get the coop board and management to do something about the heating situation?
Your unfortunate experience seems to happen, exactly identically, with some frequency nowadays. It has happened to me, in a condo building in a prime area of a large city in New England. Some people (particularly younger ones) are bothered by having to open a window when the condo gets overheated by good old (the best!) steam heating, and naively listen to construction industry that promotes the new "modern, temperature equalizing" hot-water based systems. So, the good old steam heating and the solid old cast iron radiators (in reality, the only way to heat large buildings properly in the Northeast) gets torn down, and the new useless hot water system (with flimsy aluminum heaters that do not transfer any heat beyond the heater itself) get enthusiastically installed by idiots who can't be bothered to open the window. During the first winter, it becomes obvious that the damage is irreparably done, because the condos on the windy/northern/colder side of the building do not get heated at all, and there is no real remedy. My guess is that nothing can be improved with your heating (mine was functioning at the maximum, with good window seals too, yet the temps were around 58-62, due to inherent limitations of hot water heating and aluminum heaters). Buying electrical space heaters and placing them around the condo is the only thing that will keep you alive in the winter in the situation you are describing. I know (because I own condos in both cities) that electricity is much more expensive in NYC (where I believe you live) than in the city further north where I currently live, so if the.supplemental electrical heating becomes too expensive, the best solution is probably to move. You are correct about not being able to sue the co-op or condo trust - laws are unfortunately such that there is not much you can do against them, and I would not advise legal action unless you can afford to lose a couple of million $ on it.

Last edited by elnrgby; 12-30-2017 at 08:37 AM..
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