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As someone who attended one of these schools in NYC.
It will be very hard for a student to keep up with there studies if they are not totally dedicated to there education .
I was never coached , low/mid class family in Brooklyn but I was dedicated to my studies and so was most of my classmates.
The question I have is , what is going to happen when and if they fall behind ?
I clearly remember students not being asked to return for the next semester and then transferred out of the school.
Is this going to change ?
I can also see how it can take that slightly above average student and propel them to excel simply by being around other students that take there education seriously ,im a firm believer that atmosphere in educational institutions is a motivating factor.
Right, and I think the right thing to do for the board of education is to explicitly outline what is their mechanism for helping those who fall behind, what's the process when a student can't catch up, and how they will monitor and adjust their system as they go.
I also belief that the atmosphere in educational institutions is a motivating factor and there are a lot of schools in the NYC public school system that are lacking in that regard.
Not necessarily true when it comes to a single test admission and hewing close to the cut-off. In that specific instance, you will definitely have some kids who probably would do very well in the school versus kids who got in within the cut-off but weren't really a far outlier at the top of the testing ranks. The Discovery program in its current form has done some monitoring and has shown that to be mostly the case. The proof is in the pudding that the goalpost wasn't moved in terms of results ultimately. This expansion of the Discovery program might work about as well, though as I noted earlier, I think there might be a slight issue in that the remaining 80% of seats are now that much more competitive and you may actually have a significant skill gap between that 80% and the 20% from the Discovery program, though that remains to be seen.
However, even if that does end up working fine, there's still the issue that with a limited number of seats, you are then prioritizing one set of people with about equal ability. While I can understand the rationale behind that for various reasons, it's still problematic. Better that there were simply more seats.
But there are REQUIREMENTS. And inherent in that is that the line must be drawn somewhere.
Ending up "close to the cut-off" is still falling short. You move the goal posts down to that and sooner or later, there will be scores of kids who were close to "close to the cut-off." When does it end?
Don't think I lack sympathy or empathy. Moth at 15 was no dope, but I might well have not been able to pass that test myself. So it goes.
But there are REQUIREMENTS. And inherent in that is that the line must be drawn somewhere.
Ending up "close to the cut-off" is still falling short. You move the goal posts down to that and sooner or later, there will be scores of kids who were close to "close to the cut-off." When does it end?
Don't think I lack sympathy or empathy. Moth at 15 was no dope, but I might well have not been able to pass that test myself. So it goes.
Right, I agree with that to some extent, but if the results of previous students in the Discovery program who were close to the cut-off and entered into the specialized high schools were ultimately indistinguishable from those who made the cut-off then there’s some room to argue that this change in requirements does not have negative consequences. That seems pragmatic to me.
My concerns about this are on a separate line of argument, but the above should be taken into account.
Now if the whole thing was that there was no requirement or that we are trying out a program where kids who score far away from the cut-off are getting reserved seats, then that’s a separare issue.
I don't know if you agree with me or not. You seem to believe Harvard was a match to your abilities and you would have graduated.
If you did get into Harvard with lowered academic standards (like George W. Bush did) and graduated, would you have been for it or against it?
By the way, I graduated from a top public academic high school and was very happy to graduate from UCLA, back when in-state tution was $300 a semester. I doubt if I would have fit in at Harvard or Yale. Not everyone who gets to graduate from a top public academic high school is going to want to go to the Ivy Leagues, but it likely will let them get admitted to the college of their choice, where they will most likely graduate..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth
Put it this way.
Had I applied to Harvard, Stanford, or Yale, their admissions staff would never have stopped laughing. And they would be right to do so.
However, I have no doubt that if they decided to conduct an experiment and let me enroll, I would have earned a degree there.
But why should they lower their standards simply because I could not gain admission? Why should I not be happy in a school that is a match for my abilities?
You are moving the goalposts i.e. lowering the standards.
Right, I agree with that to some extent, but if the results of previous students in the Discovery program who were close to the cut-off and entered into the specialized high schools were ultimately indistinguishable from those who made the cut-off then there’s some room to argue that this change in requirements does not have negative consequences. That seems pragmatic to me.
My concerns about this are on a separate line of argument, but the above should be taken into account.
Now if the whole thing was that there was no requirement or that we are trying out a program where kids who score far away from the cut-off are getting reserved seats, then that’s a separare issue.
Sounds like a brand new Elite High School would be the remedy here.
But, we would be right back here again soon enough. This problem is present all over the country. Tweaking the rules and slandering people (not you!!!) is not the answer.
I don't know if you agree with me or not. You seem to believe Harvard was a match to your abilities and you would have graduated.
If you did get into Harvard with lowered academic standards (like George W. Bush did) and graduated, would you have been for it or against it?
No, it was not a match for my abilities. I think I could have earned a degree at Harvard. But I would have been surrounded by people who were more gifted than I with all the consequences such a situation would entail. In other words, I probably would not have flourished there.
It's moot since I had neither the academic credentials nor a powerful connection.
Sounds like a brand new Elite High School would be the remedy here.
But, we would be right back here again soon enough. This problem is present all over the country. Tweaking the rules and slandering people (not you!!!) is not the answer.
I think an expansion of some of the smaller good public high schools, and there are several at this point, makes sense. These aren't necessarily the specialized high schools, but some rank as highly or better. It's basically that fiddling with the part of the system that works with no net new seats doesn't seem very useful. Expanding the parts of the system that do work and then seeding them elsewhere that makes sense is much, much better. That doesn't get you back in the same spot. Some of these good schools are quite small and they also aren't officially part of the specialized high school system so their admission criteria often include a lot more than just the test score and also doesn't take going to bat at the state legislative level to modify.
Some of these schools specialize in certain ways that produce great results and one that simple zoned schools or a single-test admission specialized high school don't achieve. Obviously, there are the performing arts high schools, but there are other public schools in the system such as the high school which does a dual curriculum in Spanish because there is a recognized and pragmatic need for it since this city has many kids from Puerto Rican or Spanish-speaking country backgrounds who came over after having receiving some primary education solely in Spanish elsewhere. Some of those kids were intellectually quite gifted, but were going to have an extremely tough time showing that in most other high schools, but that school teaches parts of the core curriculum in Spanish while also trying to bring the kids up to speed in English. That's a specialized high school of a sort, but not with a capital S, and that has been proven effective. With such a large city and diverse student population, it does make some sense that there are these sort of different tracks that fit to different strengths.
On another note: yea, more specialized high schools (with S in caps) might partially help. Out of the eight of the specialized high schools that do solely use the SHSAT, four of them were created in the 2000s.
Regardless, I think the high school level is already a tough part to start. I think further trialing extended school hours and summer sessions makes sense as the trial they did in the Bronx showed good results, so doing that in middle school or elementary school especially in disadvantaged areas might be worth a shot. Now that of course takes time and money, but it's arguable that the long-range benefits can be worth it.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 08-16-2018 at 01:13 PM..
I think an expansion of some of the smaller good public high schools, and there are several at this point, makes sense. These aren't necessarily the specialized high schools, but some rank as highly or better. It's basically that fiddling with the part of the system that works with no net new seats doesn't seem very useful. Expanding the parts of the system that do work and then seeding them elsewhere that makes sense is much, much better. That doesn't get you back in the same spot. Some of these good schools are quite small and they also aren't officially part of the specialized high school system so their admission criteria often include a lot more than just the test score and also doesn't take going to bat at the state legislative level to modify.
Some of these schools specialize in certain ways that produce great results and one that simple zoned schools or a single-test admission specialized high school don't achieve. Obviously, there are the performing arts high schools, but there are other public schools in the system such as the high school which does a dual curriculum in Spanish because there is a recognized and pragmatic need for it since this city has many kids from Puerto Rican or Spanish-speaking country backgrounds who came over after having receiving some primary education solely in Spanish elsewhere. Some of those kids were intellectually quite gifted, but were going to have an extremely tough time showing that in most other high schools, but that school teaches parts of the core curriculum in Spanish while also trying to bring the kids up to speed in English. That's a specialized high school of a sort, but not with a capital S, and that has been proven effective. With such a large city and diverse student population, it does make some sense that there are these sort of different tracks that fit to different strengths.
On another note: yea, more specialized high schools (with S in caps) might partially help. Out of the eight of the specialized high schools that do solely use the SHSAT, four of them were created in the 2000s.
Regardless, I think the high school level is already a tough part to start. I think further trialing extended school hours and summer sessions makes sense as the trial they did in the Bronx showed good results, so doing that in middle school or elementary school especially in disadvantaged areas might be worth a shot. Now that of course takes time and money, but it's arguable that the long-range benefits can be worth it.
IMHO Spanish-speaking kids, or any whom are not yet proficient in English, should do a 1 year full immersion course in English. English 7 hours per day, 5 days per week and lots of encouragement to watch American TV (TV is a great language tool). They will fine and ready for a normal curriculum after that.
IMHO Spanish-speaking kids, or any whom are not yet proficient in English, should do a 1 year full immersion course in English. English 7 hours per day, 5 days per week and lots of encouragement to watch American TV (TV is a great language tool). They will fine and ready for a normal curriculum after that.
The rest of your post is fine.
Given the results that school has had, I think their curriculum has worked out pretty well. I think it's a bit different for Spanish because of the sheer size of the Spanish-language population here. I think my point is that some specialization among high schools in a city this large makes sense which is why suggestions of just having the same education in every school and have the schools simply be zoned by area doesn't make sense to me. The specialized high schools also specialize and get pretty good results.
Given the results that school has had, I think their curriculum has worked out pretty well. I think it's a bit different for Spanish because of the sheer size of the Spanish-language population here. I think my point is that some specialization among high schools in a city this large makes sense which is why suggestions of just having the same education in every school and have the schools simply be zoned by area doesn't make sense to me. The specialized high schools also specialize and get pretty good results.
I have not examined the results of the bilingual curriculum you allude to. I am citing my own experience, not for the first time.
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) is not the answer.
