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Old 03-12-2020, 08:45 PM
 
Location: New York
1,186 posts, read 958,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foamposite View Post
But the Nordic countries are not socialist, and are clearly to the right of what even the DSA wants. Those countries also have closed borders and a small, homogenous population.
Agree, I don't think any of the successful examples of socialist democracies are purely socialist. The governments of the Nordic countries do not have sole control over the means of production, and co-exist alongside private capitalist enterprise and democratic elections.

The small, homogenous population of the Scandinavian countries is often offered up as a reason for why similar policies would fail in the US, but I think we can probably give it more of a look as the US has lots of relatively successful peer examples outside of these countries to draw upon. Also, not all social programs need to be implemented at the Federal level, as seen from the success of many local school districts, fire departments, police services, state-level healthcare programs, etc. which operate successfully within the confines of certain Federal guidelines.

The bottom line is no "pure" economic or political system is ideal, experts tend to agree that the "best" democracies (measured by the relative standard of living of those at all levels of the society) embrace a mix of both free market capitalism and socialized programs. The US already employs such a mix, but the balance may need to be re-evaluated to better serve the majority of the population, and I think that's the major drive behind the modern political movements we are seeing today both on the Left and Right that seek to draw greater attention to the interests of the American middle class.
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Old 03-13-2020, 05:41 AM
 
3,570 posts, read 3,739,322 times
Reputation: 1344
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladlensky View Post
i disagree, they are vastly different. For one, communism supports the violent overthrow of the government and complete public ownership of personal property whereas socialism does not and - realistically - modern socialism almost always exists in tandem with free-market capitalism (the 'social democracy' that people point to in the nordic countries).

I do not personally know of any socialists that support communist ideology but maybe we travel in different circles. most people who advocate for the socialization of services do so within their existing democratic (and usually free market capitalist) system and do not advocate for violent revolution to achieve it.

the word communism often evokes a very negative reaction in people (as it should, arguably) which is why the media and politicians like to conflate it with socialism in order to achieve the desired result. It works because - as i stated earlier - most people don't know the difference, they just hear both and think "bad". It would be equally disingenuous for me to try and tell people that free market capitalism is basically fascism lite to get a similar reaction.
this ^^^^^
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Old 03-13-2020, 08:38 AM
 
6,219 posts, read 3,547,135 times
Reputation: 5055
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladlensky View Post
Agree, I don't think any of the successful examples of socialist democracies are purely socialist. The governments of the Nordic countries do not have sole control over the means of production, and co-exist alongside private capitalist enterprise and democratic elections.

The small, homogenous population of the Scandinavian countries is often offered up as a reason for why similar policies would fail in the US, but I think we can probably give it more of a look as the US has lots of relatively successful peer examples outside of these countries to draw upon. Also, not all social programs need to be implemented at the Federal level, as seen from the success of many local school districts, fire departments, police services, state-level healthcare programs, etc. which operate successfully within the confines of certain Federal guidelines.

The bottom line is no "pure" economic or political system is ideal, experts tend to agree that the "best" democracies (measured by the relative standard of living of those at all levels of the society) embrace a mix of both free market capitalism and socialized programs. The US already employs such a mix, but the balance may need to be re-evaluated to better serve the majority of the population, and I think that's the major drive behind the modern political movements we are seeing today both on the Left and Right that seek to draw greater attention to the interests of the American middle class.
Would middle class Americans be willing be to taxed 40-50 percent? I think not.

The US also receives a continuous stream of low income immigrants (even with Trump in office, and obviously more so with a left wing president in power).
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Old 03-13-2020, 10:15 AM
 
6,046 posts, read 4,407,779 times
Reputation: 13561
Middle class Americans barely exist any longer and as for taxes, when you add up the taxes that are pure taxes, the deductions for social security and Medicare, disability and unemployment, then the taxes disguised as fees, such drivers' licenses, tolls, and then add on top the onerous burden of over priced medical "insurance" (not care, just insurance) that no other first world country on the planet imposes on their population and the recent astronomical rise in the cost of housing, just how much salary do you think the average middle class American spends before they have any left for themselves?
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Old 03-13-2020, 01:35 PM
 
6,219 posts, read 3,547,135 times
Reputation: 5055
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC refugee View Post
Middle class Americans barely exist any longer and as for taxes, when you add up the taxes that are pure taxes, the deductions for social security and Medicare, disability and unemployment, then the taxes disguised as fees, such drivers' licenses, tolls, and then add on top the onerous burden of over priced medical "insurance" (not care, just insurance) that no other first world country on the planet imposes on their population and the recent astronomical rise in the cost of housing, just how much salary do you think the average middle class American spends before they have any left for themselves?
So you want to take even more of their money?
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Old 03-13-2020, 03:06 PM
 
Location: New York
1,186 posts, read 958,056 times
Reputation: 2970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foamposite View Post
Would middle class Americans be willing be to taxed 40-50 percent? I think not.

The US also receives a continuous stream of low income immigrants (even with Trump in office, and obviously more so with a left wing president in power).
Several studies already suggest that payroll tax deductions for a national insurance scheme/paid family leave/unemployment insurance withholding would be on average less than families currently pay for private insurance premiums/co-pays/deductibles/out of pocket expenses plus prescription drug costs, childcare costs and expenses associated with extended periods of unemployment (all of which would be removed/replaced). Then we have to look into what and how our existing taxes are allocated and see where some re-balancing can be done to better benefit the middle class. We also shouldn't ignore the positive social benefit of a middle class without the risk of bankruptcy or major debt due to chronic illness. Letting people stay in their homes and not becoming debt-slaves to the insurance industry is a net positive for the economy.

The US also receives a continuous stream of well-educated, well-paid non-immigrant visa-holders who pay into the system via payroll taxes and SSI withholding but will not benefit from them. Presumably this would continue under a more socialized system, and the income from large numbers of working non-immigrants will actually help fund these programs further. The US has a solid history of attracting successful immigrant groups; we need to continue that trend to help support a robust social system that will benefit everyone.
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Old 03-13-2020, 03:24 PM
 
3,570 posts, read 3,739,322 times
Reputation: 1344
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladlensky View Post
Several studies already suggest that payroll tax deductions for a national insurance scheme/paid family leave/unemployment insurance withholding would be on average less than families currently pay for private insurance premiums/co-pays/deductibles/out of pocket expenses plus prescription drug costs, childcare costs and expenses associated with extended periods of unemployment (all of which would be removed/replaced). Then we have to look into what and how our existing taxes are allocated and see where some re-balancing can be done to better benefit the middle class. We also shouldn't ignore the positive social benefit of a middle class without the risk of bankruptcy or major debt due to chronic illness. Letting people stay in their homes and not becoming debt-slaves to the insurance industry is a net positive for the economy.

The US also receives a continuous stream of well-educated, well-paid non-immigrant visa-holders who pay into the system via payroll taxes and SSI withholding but will not benefit from them. Presumably this would continue under a more socialized system, and the income from large numbers of working non-immigrants will actually help fund these programs further. The US has a solid history of attracting successful immigrant groups; we need to continue that trend to help support a robust social system that will benefit everyone.
I welcome your voice here.
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Old 03-13-2020, 06:05 PM
 
4,757 posts, read 3,336,130 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
I welcome your voice here.

Agreed. I look forward to seeing their posts in the future.
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Old 03-16-2020, 08:49 AM
 
Location: New York
1,186 posts, read 958,056 times
Reputation: 2970
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Originally Posted by DreamerD View Post
Agreed. I look forward to seeing their posts in the future.
Thanks, I've been lurking around the NYC board as I'm trying to make it out of Westchester soon.
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Old 03-16-2020, 06:18 PM
 
4,757 posts, read 3,336,130 times
Reputation: 3715
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladlensky View Post
Thanks, I've been lurking around the NYC board as I'm trying to make it out of Westchester soon.
Lol. You are trying to make it out of Westchester and I Georgia. I am familiar with Westchester...wouldn't mind it but it's so much easier to do things in the boroughs when you live in one. Do you think Bernie will carry NY being that Biden is seen by some as too right-wing??
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