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No, it’s you that don’t understand. East Asians like I said are more obedient and lockdowns work better there precisely because of that. Westerners particularly Americans are used to a lot of personal freedom.
I used Sweden as an example of the other extreme of a total lockdown e.g. Spain, Italy, and UK. Compared to those, even with no lockdown, they are doing relatively well. This casts into doubt if a complete lockdown is really effective or other measures may be more effective while not killing its economy.
The first paragraph is true. The big problem is why NYC has an higher infection rate is due to diversity. Not of diversity of race or ethnic group, but also diversity of the mind. Asian people tend to think one way collectively during a crisis, or most people think one way vs the West like in NYC where you have different mindsets of people who think differently based on experiences, worldview, upbringing and academic achievement.
Did I say "diversity?" Opps. Yes I did. Diversity of different people also contribute to high death rate. Places like East Asia are generally homogenous racially vs the West, South East Asia, South Asia, Middle East, Central Asia and Latin America. Having people being alike and thinking alike helps to move a nation in one direction. It is not so in places like the United States in which individuality matters, and collective matters for in group people based on race, class or educational background on what is best for everyone else, or themselves.
Last edited by Checkmarkblue; 05-08-2020 at 12:58 PM..
No, it’s you that don’t understand. East Asians like I said are more obedient and lockdowns work better there precisely because of that. Westerners particularly Americans are used to a lot of personal freedom.
I used Sweden as an example of the other extreme of a total lockdown e.g. Spain, Italy, and UK. Compared to those, even with no lockdown, they are doing relatively well. This casts into doubt if a complete lockdown is really effective or other measures may be more effective while not killing its economy.
Oh okay. So at this point I say, "No, it's YOU who don't understand?" That's not very productive.
There was no history of lockdowns for pandemics prior to this East Asian or otherwise. It simply did not exist as a regular response. You've gone on about East Asian countries and habits for other topics besides this, and the fact is, you plainly don't know what you're talking about (like, can you even read any newspapers in any East Asian language?). There is no prior history of massive lockdowns for pandemics in East Asia. There is no history of exercising that kind of obedience or government action. It does not exist.
You mentioned Sweden and you also mentioned the existence of myriad factors which I agree with. The closest to Sweden in terms of those myriad factors are its neighboring Nordic countries. Sweden had a more lax approach, and that's understandable given their trust in their citizenry and that no one knows for sure what is the exactly optimal thing to do, but in comparison to their nordic neighbors, Sweden's per capita death rate has been worse and their projected economic contraction is in line with their neighbors. Again, it's not known how this will ultimately go, but it's also erroneous to claim that their actions have put them in a better position so far.
Oh okay. So at this point I say, "No, it's YOU who don't understand?" That's not very productive.
There was no history of lockdowns for pandemics prior to this East Asian or otherwise. It simply did not exist as a regular response. You've gone on about East Asian countries and habits for other topics besides this, and the fact is, you plainly don't know what you're talking about (like, can you even read any newspapers in any East Asian language?). There is no prior history of massive lockdowns for pandemics in East Asia. There is no history of exercising that kind of obedience or government action. It does not exist.
You mentioned Sweden and you also mentioned the existence of myriad factors which I agree with. The closest to Sweden in terms of those myriad factors are its neighboring Nordic countries. Sweden had a more lax approach, and that's understandable given their trust in their citizenry and that no one knows for sure what is the exactly optimal thing to do, but in comparison to their nordic neighbors, Sweden's per capita death rate has been worse and their projected economic contraction is in line with their neighbors. Again, it's not known how this will ultimately go, but it's also erroneous to claim that their actions have put them in a better position so far.
I never said there were any histories of lockdowns in Asian countries. You are the one repeating that. What I did said was that they have more experience with outbreaks. And you are the one criticizing me for reading.
I never compared Sweden with their Nordic neighbors. Again, you are the one doing that. I thought I already explained to you that I used Sweden as an example of a country that did not do a complete lockdown and that compared with the ones that did, they aren’t doing that badly even with no lockdown. Again, that is because there are myriad factors, some of which could take years before we know for sure what they are.
I never said there were any histories of lockdowns in Asian countries. You are the one repeating that. What I did said was that they have more experience with outbreaks. And you are the one criticizing me for reading.
I never compared Sweden with their Nordic neighbors. Again, you are the one doing that. I thought I already explained to you that I used Sweden as an example of a country that did not do a complete lockdown and that compared with the ones that did, they aren’t doing that badly even with no lockdown.
That came from a response to you saying that "Americans are not used to lockdowns, prior to this." Guess what? Pretty much no country was used to lockdowns prior to this, East Asian or otherwise. Smack your head harder, please.
I'm comparing Sweden with its Nordic neighbors because it's the most reasonable way to control for myriad factors while comparing the difference in policy. We both agree there are many factors, right? We both are curious about how Sweden's different tack on this ends up going, right? So you try to control for different myriad factors by having the most similar neighboring countries so that the variable you're looking at, that of the relatively lax restrictions Sweden put in, are hopefully the dominating variable for what's influencing different outcomes. That's why I keep mentioning its Nordic neighbors. With that, they have a much higher death rate than their most similar, neighboring countries and don't look to be having particularly rosy economic projections in comparison. Do you understand this?
That came from a response to you saying that "Americans are not used to lockdowns, prior to this." Guess what? Pretty much no country was used to lockdowns prior to this, East Asian or otherwise. Smack your head harder, please.
I'm comparing Sweden with its Nordic neighbors because it's the most reasonable way to control for myriad factors while comparing the difference in policy. We both agree there are many factors, right? We both are curious about how Sweden's different tack on this ends up going, right? So you try to control for different myriad factors by having the most similar neighboring countries so that the variable you're looking at, that of the relatively lax restrictions Sweden put in, are hopefully the dominating variable for what's influencing different outcomes. That's why I keep mentioning its Nordic neighbors. With that, they have a much higher death rate than their most similar, neighboring countries and don't look to be having particularly rosy economic projections in comparison. Do you understand this?
East Asian countries may not have had government ordered lockdowns but like I said, they are more obedient and due to experience with past outbreaks, will do self shutdowns of stores, staying home, etc. so it would be not difficult for them to go from that to one that was government ordered.
This is all very obvious but since you like to argue on the most rigid points just to “win” an argument, all your discussions tend to be drawn out and kills threads. I always find myself constantly repeating myself when arguing with you. Hmmm, I am beginning to realize this may not be a coincidence.
As for Sweden, that’s cool that you want to control the factors but that’s your choice. I am just simply using one country where no lockdown was implemented compared to others that did to show that lockdowns alone is not necessarily the answer.
Anyway, argue away. I know it bugs you to not get in the last word.
East Asian countries may not have had government ordered lockdowns but like I said, they are more obedient and due to experience with past outbreaks, will do self shutdowns of stores, staying home, etc. so it would be not difficult for them to go from that to one that was government ordered.
This is all very obvious but since you like to argue on the most rigid points just to “win” an argument, all your discussions tend to be drawn out and kills threads. I always find myself constantly repeating myself when arguing with you. Hmmm, I am beginning to realize this may not be a coincidence.
As for Sweden, that’s cool that you want to control the factors but that’s your choice. I am just simply using one country where no lockdown was implemented compared to others that did to show that lockdowns alone is not necessarily the answer.
Anyway, argue away. I know it bugs you to not get in the last word.
No one said there aren't other factors--the response was to Americans not being used to lockdowns is not unique in any sense. Other countries also are not used to it. I made that explicitly clear and your response to me was about East Asian governments and somehow they are more obedient. If you weren't responding to what I'm saying, but just throwing that in there, then why did you even bother quoting my response?
There's not much about East Asians being more obedient unless you're talking about North Korea. It's also not like other countries aren't more prepared than others from learning from experiences that aren't their own--certainly it's not just East Asian countries that have fared better so far than the US has.
Oh okay, it's my choice that controlling for factors is standard practice when trying to make reasonable comparisons. Cool, man. It's my choice that water is wet. Cool, cool. I'm doing a mitzvah here by helping you realize how silly you are over an anonymous forum rather than you being you in the real world. *hugs*
Yikes. As time passes by, I knew this type of data will eventually come out and I'm glad it did. Not to bash NYC the birth of my home, but the truth of this pandemic. It looks like when the virus recheaed NYC from Europe. The virus was used NYC as a hub or vehicle to spread to other parts of the country. Also poor local leadership from the Governor, Mayor and our President made it all the worse for NYC, but also for the country.
Yay! As always, NYC leads the way.
But, seriously, why should this surprise you? Of course we're a travel hub. And not only that, we're more densely populated than many cities, so we spread among each other.
NY's diversity is it's weakness. COVID-19 struck NY because the political leaders didn't shut the city down soon enough to foreigners from China. Parades in Chinatown were the key to this disaster, as people stood body to body in Chinatown.
Aside from that, immigrants from other foreign countries with immunity to deadly viruses have the ability to spread them to NY residents that succumb to a virus like COVID-19. Illegal immigrants have no documented medical history and can spread just about anything they want, using mass transit, etc.
I'm surprised that anybody would have thought it wasn't going to get bad in NYC. Cities will get hit harder from contagion, and NYC in particular is basically a giant petri dish. If it's not Covid, it's something else. I get sick less in NYC than I did in Chicago though, but I digress.
Maybe if you tested the entire population regularly starting from the very beginning, the statistics would have a particularly interesting and different tone, but this is an impossibility. Where are most Asians in America? West Coast. What is the biggest concern revolving around massive spread? Travel from Europe. I don't think it matters at this point as it feels like it'll just lead to pointing fingers. Energy is better spent on the now I would think so we all get through this and come out stronger and better than we did going in.
NY's diversity is it's weakness. COVID-19 struck NY because the political leaders didn't shut the city down soon enough to foreigners from China. Parades in Chinatown were the key to this disaster, as people stood body to body in Chinatown.
Aside from that, immigrants from other foreign countries with immunity to deadly viruses have the ability to spread them to NY residents that succumb to a virus like COVID-19. Illegal immigrants have no documented medical history and can spread just about anything they want, using mass transit, etc.
You realize that what's currently known is that the strain that's here likely came by way of Europe, right? NYC gets a lot of traffic from all over the world and domestically, and in this case, it looks like it was its close connections to Europe that were how the virus was brought in and had unchecked community spread. I agree the Chinatown parade and such are indicative of how the city and state were too lax, but there's also little indication that the parade was actually a major point of spread for the city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javawood
I'm surprised that anybody would have thought it wasn't going to get bad in NYC. Cities will get hit harder from contagion, and NYC in particular is basically a giant petri dish. If it's not Covid, it's something else. I get sick less in NYC than I did in Chicago though, but I digress.
Maybe if you tested the entire population regularly starting from the very beginning, the statistics would have a particularly interesting and different tone, but this is an impossibility. Where are most Asians in America? West Coast. What is the biggest concern revolving around massive spread? Travel from Europe. I don't think it matters at this point as it feels like it'll just lead to pointing fingers. Energy is better spent on the now I would think so we all get through this and come out stronger and better than we did going in.
I mean, the thing is that there are differing responses which meant that some cities that are dense and heavily-trafficked came out pretty fine while some areas, I think one notable one was the Albany area of Georgia, that aren't very urban got screwed hard per capita. It honestly seems to boil down to preparedness and response rather than how urban a place is, and what would hopefully happen after this is a comparative assessment of responses to the pandemic and their results and making sure that there is a solid plan and coordinating agency for future pandemics.
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