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And not to mention the cost of electricity in NY has skyrocketed because the woke greenies who want you to buy more heat pumps™! also closed down a carbon free source of reliable energy - the Indian point nuclear power plant. Their supposed replacement is a yet to be built wind farm in Quebec
That post you're quoting is kind of non sequitur. Insulation is a great way to save on bills, but since insulation works the same way irrespective of heat coming from a heat pump or a furnace, and it's certainly easily possible to size heat pump capacities to whatever needs you have which is also the same for gas furnaces. That is to say--don't be an idiot and get the one with the right capacity for what you need whether it's a heat pump or a gas furnace. Mindless statements like that are why it's prudent to put that poster on the ignore list--their posts are often an awful waste of time even on a forum where part of it is to waste time! You get dumber just from reading them!
Electricity prices skyrocketed for multiple reasons. It includes the shutdown of Indian Point, but it also includes the large rise in natural gas costs which is how downstate generates a lot of electricity. I do think it's important to remember that Indian Point was closed for pretty good reasons*, but I think it was closed haphazardly as there was a lot of time prior to its closure where alternative sources could have been readied and that should have been how that transition happened. Cuomo was not a good governor and I stand by that. Also, I'm pretty sure it's not really wind farms in Quebec, but a HVDC line for electricity most of which would be generated from Quebec's ample and cheap hydroelectricity sources as they're dispatchable sources.
*In case you hadn't been following very closely, Indian Point was an older nuclear power plant that was placed far closer to large populations and within five miles of a primary water supply for what is the most economically productive city and metropolitan region in the US. That would be unthinkably stupid today even in very pro-nuclear energy countries. The order of magnitude of damage is part of risk assessment in addition to the probability of it happening and the order of magnitude of damage was very high in worst case scenarios so the siting was pretty weird. Coupled with that is that the probabilities for these were also a lot worse than when this thing was first built for two reasons. One is that the initial seismic risk assessments turned out to be incorrect, and while not extremely high, was higher than originally thought. The other one, and this is a big one, is that risk assessments previously put a larger emphasis on natural catastrophes, but it's a different world now where man-made catastrophes as perhaps made more visible by 9/11, are a more significant factor. I forget if this was for Shoreham or Indian Point, but as part of community outreach about risks, NRC used as an example of probability of catastrophe that of a large airplane landing in a stadium while it's in the middle of the Super Bowl. The intent at that point was to highlight how improbable it was as it was the idea that an airplane spontaneously having an accident where that happens at such exact time and place was ridiculous. In hindsight, this is not as ridiculous as it sounds because it would not be an accidental and spontaneous crash of the airplane into such a rare and heavily attended event, but an *intentional* one. I am very much a proponent of nuclear power and I greatly enjoy looking over design concepts for various new nuclear power plants which are vast and varied, but I think people who argue against reasonable closures are actually terrible for pushing the argument for more nuclear power. It's a bit embarrassing, like being compelled to bring along a dumb****, nose goblin eating cousin on a nice night out.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 10-26-2022 at 03:34 PM..
Unless Heat pump adherents can explain or even understand the simple concept that ICE will form on evaporator coils when humidity is high and outside coils are far below freezing, as they must be in order to extract heat from outside winter air they will not be able to evaluate heat pump usage in the Northeast..
Ice formed from moisture last year, last decade, and last CENTURY.
So how do you melt the ice tom restore ice flow. Old systems used a gas flame, newer units run the system in reverse in essence becoming an air conditioner to use indoor heat to melt the ice. The usual solution is a switchover thermostat thatm at a certain temperature (my experience before I disabled it was switchover at 40 degrees to a 3000 watt resistance heater.)
So tell me, HOW do these "clever" newer heat pumps deal with ice buildup.
In the cold, humid Northeast heat pumps are NOT efficient. That, and only that, is the reason they are so rare. They just do not work efficiently as temperatures approach freezing.
If you live in FLorida, Arizona, New Mexico, OLD Mexico, they are fine, and can save you money. In NYC they are a con job.
Last edited by Kefir King; 10-26-2022 at 03:24 PM..
Unless Heat pump adherents can explain or even understand the simple concept that ICE will form on evaporator coils when humidity is high and outside coils are far below freezing, as they must be in order to extract heat from outside winter air they wioll not be abl;e to evaluate heat pump usage in the Northeast..
Ice formed from moisture last year, last decade, and last CENTURY.
So how do you melt the ice tom restore ice flow. Old systems used a gas flame, newer units run the system in reverse in essence becoming an air conditioner to use indoor heat to melt the ice. The usual solution is a switchover thermostat thatm at a certain temperature (my experience before I disabled it was switchover at 40 degrees to a 3000 watt resistance heater.)
So tell me, HOW do these "clever" newer heat pumps deal with ice buildup.
In the cold, humid Northeast heat pumps are NOT efficient. That, and only that, is the reason they are so rare.
If you live in FLorida, Arizona, New Mexico, OLD Mexiico, they are fine. In NYC they are a con job.
That's what I'm trying to tell you--the cold climate heat pumps come with ways to deal with condensation being formed on evaporator coils. I pointed out specifically in those videos how that's done and the first link even has a timestamp to exactly when he goes into it though you'll have to click the link as the timestamps don't work inline for posts. You have to remember that northern East Asian climate is a lot like northeastern US climates where there is a lot of humidity in the air. That's what's been happening for many years now with the heat pumps in northern East Asian cities for a while--it's only in recent years that they've made their way to the US. If for some reason, you think somehow the northeastern US is so incredibly distinct in its climate that it's not comparable to northern East Asia, then how about these people in Minnesota (I didn't post any Japanese or Chinese videos because I figured it'd be a bit hard to understand) that I posted? Look at the climate of Minneapolis versus NYC. Do you see how that on average Minneapolis is both colder *and* more humid than NYC? Or is there another kind of special exceptionalism that NYC gets for its climate?
Heat pumps do well in Florida, Arizona, New Mexico, OLD Mexico, California, etc. They were a con job in NYC before there were heat pumps introduced here meant specifically for colder, humid climates like the Northeast, like in NYC or in coastal Maine (or in the case of those videos, Minnesota). People did get sold on heat pumps that were *not* good for this climate in the past and you're probably thinking about your personal experiences with those which would understandably have been miserable. These are not the same devices though! I believe you can still learn new things!
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 10-26-2022 at 03:37 PM..
Right, and I assume that you're in Connecticut, right? Not Florida, not Arizona, not New Mexico, not OLD Mexico?
If so, does anyone want to argue with Stepfordct that there is dramatically balmier and drier winters in Connecticut compared to NYC? Anybody?
Retail store environments have the same heating demands as residential homes? As a landlord, the OP's goal was the cheapest install costs. His tenant (I assume) pays the monthly utility costs.
You live in some fantasy world where the "MTA is a world class organization" so I'm not surprised that you keep pushing an irrational argument. Just like you kept quiet when we had the electricity price spike in NYC a few months back.
That's what I'm trying to tell you--the cold climate heat pumps come with ways to deal with condensation being formed on evaporator coils. I pointed out specifically in those videos how that's done and the first link even has a timestamp to exactly when he goes into it though you'll have to click the link as the timestamps don't work inline for posts. You have to remember that northern East Asian climate is a lot like northeastern US climates where there is a lot of humidity in the air. That's what's been happening for many years now with the heat pumps in northern East Asian cities for a while--it's only in recent years that they've made their way to the US. If for some reason, you think somehow the northeastern US is so incredibly distinct in its climate that it's not comparable to northern East Asia, then how about these people in Minnesota (I didn't post any Japanese or Chinese videos because I figured it'd be a bit hard to understand) that I posted? Look at the climate of Minneapolis versus NYC. Do you see how that on average Minneapolis is both colder *and* more humid than NYC? Or is there another kind of special exceptionalism that NYC gets for its climate?
Heat pumps do well in Florida, Arizona, New Mexico, OLD Mexico, California, etc. They were a con job in NYC before there were heat pumps introduced here meant specifically for colder, humid climates like the Northeast, like in NYC or in coastal Maine (or in the case of those videos, Minnesota). People did get sold on heat pumps that were *not* good for this climate in the past and you're probably thinking about your personal experiences with those which would understandably have been miserable. These are not the same devices though! I believe you can still learn new things!
It's not as simple as you're making it out to be. No one is claiming they don't work better in and under certain circumstances.
The major problem with these in NYC would be the poorly insulated older homes and the retrofit/ install costs.
It's a similar argument that some make that EV cars are cheaper (over the long run) than ICE vehicles. The truth is they're not if you're paying a 50%+ premium for the EV up-front.
INSTALLATION costs are very low for these pieces of junk that all Winter run basically as RESISTANCE HEATERS. It is just that their owners do not KNOW this.
Cheap installation prompted Lefrak to install thousands of these units in Newport, Jersey City. He saved money and his tenants got stuck with the electric bill and frigid apartments.
But electrical resistance heating has the highest operating costs of any heating system.
You cannot design your way around the fact that moist air will condense upon a frigid surface and that condensation will quickly FREEZE and you cannot blow air through ICE. If a defrost system is used that requires a great deal of expensive energy to melt the ice, it works fine, but the electric bill kills you every month.
You can run a heater in resistive mode in Minnesota or at the North Pole in a snowstorm, but it is the most expensive way to heat, unless you are burning $50 Bills for warmth.
Last edited by Kefir King; 10-27-2022 at 08:32 AM..
INSTALLATION costs are very low for these pieces of junk that all Winter run basically as RESISTANCE HEATERS. It is just that their owners do not KNOW this.
Cheap installation prompted Lefrak to install thousands of these units in Newport, Jersey City. He saved money and his tenants got stuck with the electric bill and frigid apartments.
But electrical resistance heating has the highest operating costs of any heating system.
You cannot design your way around the fact that moist air will condense upon a frigid surface and that condensation will quickly FREEZE and you cannot blow air through ICE. If a defrost system is used that requires a great deal of expensive energy to melt the ice, it works fine, but the electric bill kills you every month.
You can run a heater in resistive mode in Minnesota or at the North Pole in a snowstorm, but it is the most expensive way to heat, unless you are burning $50 Bills for warmth.
Yes, there are definitely heat pumps that operate solely as resistance heaters once it becomes cold and that gets *very* expensive--they also often don't have that much heating capacity with their built in resistance heaters so not only are you paying a lot, but you're also probably not getting kept all that warm.
This makes sense given what you've said about your past experiences--people were sold a bill of goods on heat pumps that were not actually very good for cold climates. They either simply didn't work very well and left you freezing and/or constantly de-icing the thing or were deceptive in that their heating capacity was for the most part resistance heating with a COP of around 1. I've also seen air conditioning units with built in heating capacity via RESISTANCE heating being marketed as heat pumps and it took quite a bit of digging to understand these were in fact not heat pumps for heating whatsoever and it was *entirely* resistance heating which is very costly to run. Are any of these what you're talking about? Does that sound about right with your past experiences?
I'm pretty sure that's what got you so burned out on heat pumps--you got one that was not a heat pump built for colder climates and it either sucked, was costly, or both. However, like I have been trying to tell you repeatedly, OVER and OVER with spec sheets, studies, videos, even videos with thermal imaging to show the process, etc. that those are not the same kinds of heat pumps and they are not using resistance heating as their primary mode of heating even when it's pretty far below 0.
You've never had any experience with these Mitsubishi or Daikin heat pumps that are rated for -20F and below, right? Have you tried watching the two videos I posted and see how their defrost cycle to de-ice works? Have you considered that perhaps people in Minnesota, coastal Maine, northern East Asia may have just as cold and humid and often colder and more humid winters than NYC and are doing fine with these cold temperature heat pumps?
There's something stuck in your head that you have such a strong visceral reaction probably because of past bad experiences. That's understandable. But try slowing down and reading what I'm actually writing to you and doing a quick look at how these new colder temperature heat pumps operate. They are at the very least some very interesting engineering, but you seem to be compelled to skip over reading any of this.
Everything BUT "How to get rid of the ICE???
You can use a gas flame in the center of a round evaporator to melt the ice. I saw an ancient one in Brooklyn, it was cool (nice) and practical but requires a gas pipe to the outside unit.
You can just switch off the compressor and turn on resistive electric coils at a certain temperature.
You can run the heat pump in reverse as an indoor AIR CONDITIONER to melt the ice.
That, as they say, is THAT,
There are no other ways. None of your proffered Mitsubishi ads addressed the problem of wet air on freezing cold coils. Cutesy gee-gaws like more reliable thermostats and ultra reliable motors don't answer that most salient question.
Don't feed me Bull-s**t, answer the question.
Please somebody in the tri-state area who heats his place with a heat pump, tell me how your unit rids itself of ice or how it prevents ice from forming.
Everything BUT "How to get rid of the ICE???
You can use a gas flame in the center of a round evaporator to melt the ice. I saw an ancient one in Brooklyn, it was cool (nice) and practical but requires a gas pipe to the outside unit.
You can just switch off the compressor and turn on resistive electric coils at a certain temperature.
You can run the heat pump in reverse as an indoor AIR CONDITIONER to melt the ice.
That, as they say, is THAT,
There are no other ways. None of your proffered Mitsubishi ads addressed the problem of wet air on freezing cold coils. Cutesy gee-gaws like more reliable thermostats and ultra reliable motors don't answer that most salient question.
Don't feed me Bull-s**t, answer the question.
Please somebody in the tri-state area who heats his place with a heat pump, tell me how your unit rids itself of ice or how it prevents ice from forming.
Did you try actually watching the videos given or look up any of those docs? There is tiny resistance heating element on it and a quick defrost cycle to break up ice buildup and drain it. It's a small part of the overall heat pump cycle and even in real life usage and in test settings, it's effective and still delivers on a much higher than 1 COP with defrost as part of that cycle since it's a fairly short part of the overall use.
The defrost cycles were in the original site links posted a while back, but I thought the site navigation and reading was possibly overwhelming for you so I did you the favor of finding videos in English with people in cold and humid climates going through the the defrost cycle with narration that even has them going back and forth with a thermal camera. Somehow you're still asking a question answered months ago and then repeatedly answered over and over even in new media formats! Did you even look at the videos? Are you just ignoring them? How are you still having such a difficult time with this? Did you not understand what was being said to you?
You're not stupid or scientifically illiterate so how has this been so difficult for you? Is this in some weird territory where you think this is all a conspiracy? That the Japanese are secretly not heating themselves with heat pumps over winter or perhaps Asia just doesn't exist? Or that two different randos on youtube living in Minnesota are trying to pull the wool on you? Or that the uptake of heat pumps in coastal Maine are manufactured stats? STOP WITH YOUR BULL**** FIRST AND TRY TO ACTUALLY READ AND LOOK AT WHAT'S BEING POSTED OKAY? CAN YOU FIRST CONFIRM YOU'VE DONE THAT BECAUSE WHAT YOU JUST POSTED SUGGESTS OTHERWISE GIVEN THAT THOSE ARE EXACTLY THE REASONS WHY THOSE VIDEOS WERE POSTED SO IT APPEARS YOU DID NOT WATCH THEM AT ALL?
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 10-27-2022 at 03:19 PM..
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