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I argue that it presents better odds to change that than the reverse of not even having the threat of prosecution to hold over their heads. Even if someone has Stockholm Syndrome, the idea of self-preservation via cooperation to avoid prison, etc., could very well be enough in some instances to get people to flip.
Right, there's that possibility, but there's also then the factor of punishment of sex-trafficked prostitutes yielding a a higher barrier to working with or contacting the authorities if they were to try to get out of that circumstance because of fears of prosecution. It's hard to tell if there's a net improvement here, and there's something that seems a little off about putting people who were involuntarily coerced into prostitution in jail and giving them a record.
It can be an overall pretty complicated issue, and I'm sure you can appreciate some of the nuances and opposing factors going into this. I've found some studies and modeling that were pretty interesting. Here's a pretty well-researched one that attempts to model things based on economic principles: https://web.stanford.edu/~perssonp/Prostitution.pdf
For their modeling, it appears that the heavier prosecution of prostitution seems to push voluntary sex workers out, but does somewhat correlate with an increase sex trafficking since the negative externality / penalty is mostly borne by the sex workers. Unfortunately, neither decriminalization nor heavy regulation seem to eliminate trafficking entirely. The model and in the real world example that seems to come closest to reducing elimination is tackling things demand side with prosecuting johns rather than prostitutes which is termed the "Swedish" model in that paper. Of course, this is just a sample and it's impossible to exhaustively control for all factors (like, maybe the Swedish model works a bit because it's pretty hard to not have sex in Sweden since people seem pretty dtf), but it is interesting.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 04-23-2021 at 08:01 AM..
I was going to go there. Usually the pimps have the hookers terrified and / or brainwashed. They're not going to want to give them up. Having a criminal penalty at least gives the cops some leverage to get them to flip on their pimps.
And, of course, this means street prostitution will show up again. The NYPD largely got that under control, at least in Manhattan.
This is not the 70s
Young Girls today are more educated and informed than any other generation.
Today if a girl is being held against their will it's because she is illegal with no papers and doesn't speak the language.
That being said, there are young Women who willingly come here because they are escaping war torn countries like Honduras and have no choice. Either get shot or get HIV back home, or sell here where it's somewhat safer.
The problem becomes do they end up in a Biden deportation cage back home or will they really get assistance? Put yourself in their shoes. It's not Stockholm syndrome it's weighing their options. They can deal with a pimp here who is less likely to treat them too badly (to avoid USA law enforcement detection) or deal with a pimp back home where they get treated even worse and nobody, not even the cops help them there.
Given those two choices the logical decision is to continue dealing with the pimp or gang leader based in the USA and live under the radar.
Right, there's that possibility, but there's also then the factor of punishment of sex-trafficked prostitutes yielding a a higher barrier to working with or contacting the authorities if they were to try to get out of that circumstance because of fears of prosecution. It's hard to tell if there's a net improvement here, and there's something that seems a little off about putting people who were involuntarily coerced into prostitution in jail and giving them a record.
It can be an overall pretty complicated issue, and I'm sure you can appreciate some of the nuances and opposing factors going into this. I've found some studies and modeling that were pretty interesting. Here's a pretty well-researched one that attempts to model things based on economic principles: https://web.stanford.edu/~perssonp/Prostitution.pdf
For their modeling, it appears that the heavier prosecution of prostitution seems to push voluntary sex workers out, but does somewhat correlate with an increase sex trafficking since the negative externality / penalty is mostly borne by the sex workers. Unfortunately, neither decriminalization nor heavy regulation seem to eliminate trafficking entirely. The model and in the real world example that seems to come closest to reducing elimination is tackling things demand side with prosecuting johns rather than prostitutes which is termed the "Swedish" model in that paper. Of course, this is just a sample and it's impossible to exhaustively control for all factors (like, maybe the Swedish model works a bit because it's pretty hard to not have sex in Sweden since people seem pretty dtf), but it is interesting.
There's that possibility, too, which is a fair point and one that should be explored more. But then--and acknowledging the study you provided--you then have studies like this:
Quote:
The scale effect of legalized prostitution leads to an expansion of the prostitution market, increasing human trafficking, while the substitution effect reduces demand for trafficked women as legal prostitutes are favored over trafficked ones.Our empirical analysis for a cross-section of up to 150 countries shows that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect. On average, countries where prostitution is legal experience larger reported human trafficking inflows.
While Manhattan hasn't legalized prostitution, the DA's announcement is a step closer--in a practical sense--to that point than maintaining the status quo is.
There's that possibility, too, which is a fair point and one that should be explored more. But then--and acknowledging the study you provided--you then have studies like this:
While Manhattan hasn't legalized prostitution, the DA's announcement is a step closer--in a practical sense--to that point than maintaining the status quo is.
Right, and I think there are a lot of factors at play, so I'm not saying it goes definitively in one way or another. I think we can both appreciate that this is a pretty complex issue and it's hard to tell if this in effect will be net beneficial or negative for NYC and especially in regards to sex trafficking. It's certainly not something I think is definitively easy to declare in one way or another. That study does go into some detail about the difficulty of getting data sets across countries especially as reporting in countries can vary wildly and sex trafficking by default tries to keep itself hidden for obvious reasons--this is going to be prevalent in a lot of studies on the matter unfortunately which is again why I'm not keen on just declaring this is any better or worse. What I would like to see though is some kind of declared objective and process for how the results of these actions will be taken and measured within certain time intervals. I think that's something I would like to see as part of pretty much all public policy in general. Some good ol' OKRs.
I was going to go there. Usually the pimps have the hookers terrified and / or brainwashed. They're not going to want to give them up. Having a criminal penalty at least gives the cops some leverage to get them to flip on their pimps.
And, of course, this means street prostitution will show up again. The NYPD largely got that under control, at least in Manhattan.
I disagree..
Its the very criminal penalty that prostitutes face that keep them in line with the pimps and traffickers. The idea is to empower them to come forward and seek authorities. They won't do that if they themselves face being "outed" with a criminal record. Almost every pimp that I've encountered use that as leverage and they do take all their money... ALL-OF-IT. In exchange for "protection", shelter, drugs, etc...
Without the ability to amass some sort of income, they are 100% reliant on their pimp. With the threat of being outed with a criminal record, it makes it difficult for them to leave sex work. A sex worker's greatest asset is their anonymity. That anonymity is the door to their future beyond sex work. That door closes once they've been outed with a public record.
Prostitution has been around for centuries. The only reasonable "regulation" to stop pimping is to empower the prostitutes to operate independently without fear or prosecution or need for a third party. The worst legislature recently was FOSTA/SESTA. It made it even more difficult for prostitutes to reach markets as an independent and most importantly... Off the streets. This drove them to access markets in areas that are tightly controlled by pimps.
Not all hookers are brainwashed... they just have limited choices. Those that are brainwashed/abused, the worst thing we can do is treat them as criminals... they should be treated as victims. The handful times we helped a lady in this situation it was because they began to trust us with their well being more so than their pimps. Without that trust, they will stay with their pimp irregardless.... it doesn't matter if they are facing jail time.
Maybe we are adopting the Nordic Model but weren't told.
"The Nordic Model approach to prostitution (sometimes also known as the Sex Buyer Law, or the Swedish, Abolitionist, or Equality Model) decriminalises all those who are prostituted, provides support services to help them exit, and makes buying people for sex a criminal offence, in order to reduce the demand that drives sex trafficking. This approach has now been adopted in Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Northern Ireland, Canada, France, Ireland, and most recently, Israel."
Maybe we are adopting the Nordic Model but weren't told.
"The Nordic Model approach to prostitution (sometimes also known as the Sex Buyer Law, or the Swedish, Abolitionist, or Equality Model) decriminalises all those who are prostituted, provides support services to help them exit, and makes buying people for sex a criminal offence, in order to reduce the demand that drives sex trafficking. This approach has now been adopted in Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Northern Ireland, Canada, France, Ireland, and most recently, Israel."
This is a model comes up all the time around this type of discussions... I personally think it is a reasonable direction. I personally do not like the criminalization of the purchase of sex.... Like most Americans, what happens between two consenting adults' behavior in the bedroom should not be the business of government. I believe that is no different if that behavior is within the boundaries of a business proposition or a personal one. I personally believe much of this model was put into place in various Nordic countries screams Misandry.... but that's just me.
however, I do realize that certain communities will want a certain amount of control.... So I would support decriminalizing of the selling of sex at a higher level (federal/state) meanwhile leaving up the legality of the buyer side of the model up to each of the individual municipalities. I think that is a reasonable compromise. For me, the safety and legal protections for the prostitute is a greater priority.
I do believe that any third party involvement... especially pimping should be outlawed.
I also do believe that any street level prostitution should remain outlawed... (My memory might be wrong here but I believe the nordic model stops sort of outlawing street prostitution)
How many guys are out there faking relationships just to get laid every night. TONS.
If they had a legal outlet there would be less women stuck in dead beat relationships. Women would be happier. Men would be happier. And perhaps It would train people to appreciate the true romance and union of man and a woman when the time comes and if it doesn’t , what’s wrong with horsing around for a fee for the rest of their lives.
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