Flatbush Ave Brooklyn demographics change (New York, York: dangerous, shop, money)
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NYC's transit system in many ways is not as good as the very best of the world, and that's the case with mass transit agencies throughout the US compared to like counterparts going by metropolitan sizes of all levels. Even with that, multiple transit agencies within the US were able to do a bit more in terms of fast tracking a few things during the pandemic. That's what I was saying earlier and it's reasonable to want that--now you want to wander to something different which is how NYC's transit system compares to the rest of the world's.
I honestly consider the NYC subway amongst the best and it's a very biased decision, considering the fact that I grew up in Brooklyn and taking the train is second nature in NYC, plus the fact that NYC offers express service (Chicago and Philadelphia have this option as well). I would have to say that the best coverage in this country happens to be Boston and the Bay Area. DC's metro is cuurently the second busiest subway system, just surpassing Chicago this past decade.
As far as international subways, I consider London, Paris, Madrid, Barcelona, Hong Kong, Tokyo, and even Montreal as the gold standard for subways. Chicago's elevated system is too outdated and while I'm for extending the Red Line from 95th/Dan Ryan to 130th St, I won't be surprised if that doesn't happen due to budget shortfalls. Chicago just has too many problems going on with itself.
Philadelphia has the most disappointing mass transit system in the country. With 6 million people in the metro area, and 1.5 million within the city limits, you'd at least expect to see a much bigger system within the city and metro area, but thanks to SEPTA, it's regional rail system has been cut down to a shell of itself.
Toronto has a decent subway, but the Sheppard Ave Subway leaves a lot to be desired, as well as the Scarborough LRT, which I don't understand why the TTC didn't even extend the Bloor St Subway instead. And the Eglinton Ave Subway is going to be all light rail. I't great that Eglinton Ave is getting it's own line, but I would've preferred heavy rail instead. Regardless of my personal opinion, Toronto has a decent system, but the gold standard in Canada is Montreal, especiall with the REM expansion and the Blue Line expansion. I can only hope Montreal's Metro gets more lines soon, just to claim the largest subway system in Canada, as it's slowly becoming one of my favorite cities. Take that, Toronto!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
Sure, I can do that, too. First off, you were leading with the worst in the world--not the worst against the top tier best systems in the world. This is a very different statement, and I was calling you out on how stupid your original comment was. NYC's system has a lot of issues, but that's not the same as saying that the MTA is the worst public transit agency by every metric which is a pretty stupid thing to say. The system has high ridership numbers, very extensive overall coverage, has air conditioning at least on all of its trains, decent connectivity outside of the core in parts, and the 24/7 service (this last part I think is a trade-off it's making that I would not make) so it does better several of those cities in some metrics, and you have obviously not tried looking up much of this. The NYC transit system is in need of a lot of overhaul, but it's still a large and mostly functional system even though it is pretty bad in some ways and pretty hobbled as transit agencies within the US are in general of which MTA is one of. Guess where you can find an overall even worse transit system in a global city? That's pretty easy. Just try most other US cities like Miami, Los Angeles or the Bay Area. I guess you can throw in some entries from the Gulf Coast countries.
This NYC exceptionalism you're ascribing to is ridiculous.
NYC, Boston, Chicago, and Philadelphia, and maybe SF, have some of the oldest subway systems in the country, so of course you're going to have issues such as leakage, vermin, rust, and falling tiles. Then again, the US hasn't been as kind to it's mass transit systems to way Europe, Asia, and even Canada has been. The fact that Toronto and Montreal have cleaner and more efficient subway systems in comparison to the American systems speaks volumes as to how America treats it's mass transit system.
And although Canada doesn't have high-speed rail, I can see high speed rail being a reality between Windsor and Quebec City. If Detroit and Buffalo can be linked to the VIA Rail high speed rail system, that would help both of those cities and hopefully their economies can recover. If I lived in Detroit of Buffalo, I'd be equally reliant on Canada as I am on America, but international red tape chains those cities to America not because they're located in America, but there's really no way to combine the international areas together. Even San Diego and TX blends seamlessly with Mexico, so why can't Detroit and Buffalo?
As for Miami, I can see that city have a much more expanded heavy-rail elevated system in 20 years time and the Bay Area is continually expanding the BART, this time to San Jose. Hopefully the second BART tunnel can be built from Alameda, CA into downtown SF, and maybe adding more lines to the BART system will put it on par with NY. even LA is expansing it's mass transit system, to my envy as Philadelphia should've had a better and more expansive system than LA's.
While I don't really hate white people or even rich folks, I hope you don't come to Flatbush/East Flatbush and ruin the neighborhood with cafes, avocado toast shops, and restaurants where the typical Flatbusher can't afford a decent sized and affordable platter.
We don't need anymore gentrification. Keep it in Williamsburg to Downtown Brooklyn all the way west of the Gowanus in Sunset Park. The regular people of Bed Stuy, Bushwick, Brownsville, ENY, Crown Heights, and Flatbush will survive as always!!! We ain't going nowhere!!!
And in case you're wondering, I'm one of those black Caribbeans born in Kings County Hospital and went to school in the neighborhood and I don't have a problem with whites but a huge problem with gentirfiers who think they discovered the next "hot" neighborhood simply because they don't want to pay more for a condo on the Upper East and West Side and want to move into Bed-Stuy, Bushwick, Crown Heights, and Flatbush because they'd rather pay less and not only that, but gentrifiers like yourself would rather tell long timers what to do than understand that we have cultural differences. I just wish gentrifiers like yourself would go back to OH, IN, IL, MO, KS, IA, and NE than try to play it off like you're some native NYer!!!
I grew up not too far from Flatbush. I wouldn't be a gentrifier.
I'm not a huge fan of transplants either but I don't think it has to do with transplants.
While I don't really hate white people or even rich folks, I hope you don't come to Flatbush/East Flatbush and ruin the neighborhood with cafes, avocado toast shops, and restaurants where the typical Flatbusher can't afford a decent sized and affordable platter.
We don't need anymore gentrification. Keep it in Williamsburg to Downtown Brooklyn all the way west of the Gowanus in Sunset Park. The regular people of Bed Stuy, Bushwick, Brownsville, ENY, Crown Heights, and Flatbush will survive as always!!! We ain't going nowhere!!!
And in case you're wondering, I'm one of those black Caribbeans born in Kings County Hospital and went to school in the neighborhood and I don't have a problem with whites but a huge problem with gentirfiers who think they discovered the next "hot" neighborhood simply because they don't want to pay more for a condo on the Upper East and West Side and want to move into Bed-Stuy, Bushwick, Crown Heights, and Flatbush because they'd rather pay less and not only that, but gentrifiers like yourself would rather tell long timers what to do than understand that we have cultural differences. I just wish gentrifiers like yourself would go back to OH, IN, IL, MO, KS, IA, and NE than try to play it off like you're some native NYer!!!
I think the last thing Flatbush / East Flatbush has to worry about is whites gentrifying your dreary crummy neighborhood. Up until about 1970 Flatbush & East Flatbush were safe, stable middle-class Jewish & Italian neighborhoods. Between 1970 and 1980 the large influx of blacks brought deterioration and increased crime which drove out the whites. As blacks moved into Canarsie they finished off that neighborhood too. So don't lecture us on who should live where.
Has anybody ever walked around Flatbush? Not as bad or as dangerous as East New York but still a risky area. Hardly gentrification material.
Is this a serious question? You think of all the people on this board, you wouldn't be able to find someone's who's been to Flatbush?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what your concept of where Flatbush is since the OP seems to be just grabbing all the neighborhoods along Flatbush Avenue rather than Flatbush as a neighborhood. What boundaries are you using?
I honestly consider the NYC subway amongst the best and it's a very biased decision, considering the fact that I grew up in Brooklyn and taking the train is second nature in NYC, plus the fact that NYC offers express service (Chicago and Philadelphia have this option as well). I would have to say that the best coverage in this country happens to be Boston and the Bay Area. DC's metro is cuurently the second busiest subway system, just surpassing Chicago this past decade.
As far as international subways, I consider London, Paris, Madrid, Barcelona, Hong Kong, Tokyo, and even Montreal as the gold standard for subways. Chicago's elevated system is too outdated and while I'm for extending the Red Line from 95th/Dan Ryan to 130th St, I won't be surprised if that doesn't happen due to budget shortfalls. Chicago just has too many problems going on with itself.
Philadelphia has the most disappointing mass transit system in the country. With 6 million people in the metro area, and 1.5 million within the city limits, you'd at least expect to see a much bigger system within the city and metro area, but thanks to SEPTA, it's regional rail system has been cut down to a shell of itself.
Toronto has a decent subway, but the Sheppard Ave Subway leaves a lot to be desired, as well as the Scarborough LRT, which I don't understand why the TTC didn't even extend the Bloor St Subway instead. And the Eglinton Ave Subway is going to be all light rail. I't great that Eglinton Ave is getting it's own line, but I would've preferred heavy rail instead. Regardless of my personal opinion, Toronto has a decent system, but the gold standard in Canada is Montreal, especiall with the REM expansion and the Blue Line expansion. I can only hope Montreal's Metro gets more lines soon, just to claim the largest subway system in Canada, as it's slowly becoming one of my favorite cities. Take that, Toronto!!!
NYC, Boston, Chicago, and Philadelphia, and maybe SF, have some of the oldest subway systems in the country, so of course you're going to have issues such as leakage, vermin, rust, and falling tiles. Then again, the US hasn't been as kind to it's mass transit systems to way Europe, Asia, and even Canada has been. The fact that Toronto and Montreal have cleaner and more efficient subway systems in comparison to the American systems speaks volumes as to how America treats it's mass transit system.
And although Canada doesn't have high-speed rail, I can see high speed rail being a reality between Windsor and Quebec City. If Detroit and Buffalo can be linked to the VIA Rail high speed rail system, that would help both of those cities and hopefully their economies can recover. If I lived in Detroit of Buffalo, I'd be equally reliant on Canada as I am on America, but international red tape chains those cities to America not because they're located in America, but there's really no way to combine the international areas together. Even San Diego and TX blends seamlessly with Mexico, so why can't Detroit and Buffalo?
As for Miami, I can see that city have a much more expanded heavy-rail elevated system in 20 years time and the Bay Area is continually expanding the BART, this time to San Jose. Hopefully the second BART tunnel can be built from Alameda, CA into downtown SF, and maybe adding more lines to the BART system will put it on par with NY. even LA is expansing it's mass transit system, to my envy as Philadelphia should've had a better and more expansive system than LA's.
NYC's transit system being the best sort of depends a lot on how you weigh different criteria. If you're weighing it with a criteria heavy on extensiveness of coverage both in absolute amount and relative to the city, relative affordability, and hours of operation for especially the frequent rapid transit portion of it, then NYC does come out pretty well. If your criteria puts heavier weigh on accessibility, cleanliness/pleasantness, speed and on-time performance/reliability, then it starts looking much dimmer. I disagree with you Boston or the Bay Area having the best coverage because their rapid transit lines are pretty limited despite their being rail networks going across a large chunk of the city and metropolitan area.
Boston's rapid transit system is rather limited and doesn't connect to each other all that well, its commuter rail network is very extensive but has pretty bad frequency outside of rush hour and is cleaved into two separate networks, and its light rail system takes an interminably long period of time to get anywhere. It is generally cleaner than the NYC subway, but it also needs sprucing up for reliability and better performance.
The Bay Area's transit is split into way too many competing agencies that are not compatible with each other and are only now getting some linkages, the most extensive one of which is BART which despite how relatively new it is has cleanliness and safety issues. The in-city Muni Metro light rail system is also incredibly slow for most of it. Nighttime, and not even late night, and weekend transit services are pretty limited, though I guess that makes sense given how sleepy the Bay Area is.
Older transit systems don't have to be unreliable if you update them. That's one thing that's good about the London Underground which is also incredibly old. The US just doesn't prioritize mass transit and maintaining and expanding systems generally happens in random fits and then goes back into building up a maintenance and technical debt where it then needs to beg for more funding as **** breaks down. It also probably has lead to transit agencies in the US taking a long ass time to adopt practices and technologies that are common elsewhere around the world. It's taken forever for the FRA to just reform guidelines for passenger rail so that they don't need to be built as incredibly heavy brick ****houses and to get closer to euronorm standards for their rolling stock. Agreed that looking at even Canadian cities and the state of their mass transit system in comparison to city/metro size and economic might is pretty telling.
The somewhat good news for Philadelphia is that is has probably the lowest hanging fruit of all US transit systems to quickly have a much, much beefier mass transit system via turning Regional Rail into a S-Bahn/RER type of system. It's mostly electrified. It has a north-south through-running capability at the lower deck of the 30th Street Station, and even more importantly, an east-west through-running tunnel through Center City and beyond. It has stations / tracks close to other stations/stops for other modes of transit. It has tons of connecting existing ROW it can also bring back online if it wanted to expand. It would take more/new rolling stock, a different plan for how to run, and conversion of platforms to high level boarding and a little bit of grade separation at certain crossings, but fairly little heavy concrete construction and most of it is under one agency (though supposedly they can get NJT in on this for parts as well).
I agree with Madrid, Barcelona, and Hong Kong as gold standards and the other systems you mentioned are very good though with their own issues. I'd also put in Vienna, Seoul and Taipei and maybe others. A lot of the Central/Middle European cities also have fantastic systems for their size and have kept them in fairly good condition even if old. Vienna's is absurdly good for a city/metro of its size.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 07-03-2021 at 03:00 PM..
Is this a serious question? You think of all the people on this board, you wouldn't be able to find someone's who's been to Flatbush?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what your concept of where Flatbush is since the OP seems to be just grabbing all the neighborhoods along Flatbush Avenue rather than Flatbush as a neighborhood. What boundaries are you using?
Roughly from Flatbush Avenue to New York Avenue and from Foster Avenue to Caton Avenue. East of New York Avenue to Ralph Avenue is East Flatbush.
Roughly from Flatbush Avenue to New York Avenue and from Foster Avenue to Caton Avenue. East of New York Avenue to Ralph Avenue is East Flatbush.
That's interesting as I thought the boundaries were a little bit larger in terms of the western, northern, and southern boundaries since I've been told that Brooklyn College is partly in Midwood and partly in Flatbush. Within your boundaries, I've been to several of the restaurants there, the tropical ice cream parlor, and Kings Theatre. I was going to say I have friends in the area whose homes I've been to for dinner or parties, but all of them are actually just a bit outside the boundaries you posted.
Since wanderer34 seems to be more familiar with the area, I'd be interested to know what his take on Flatbush's boundaries.
That's interesting as I thought the boundaries were a little bit larger in terms of the western, northern, and southern boundaries since I've been told that Brooklyn College is partly in Midwood and partly in Flatbush. Within your boundaries, I've been to several of the restaurants there, the tropical ice cream parlor, and Kings Theatre. I was going to say I have friends in the area whose homes I've been to for dinner or parties, but all of them are actually just a bit outside the boundaries you posted.
Since wanderer34 seems to be more familiar with the area, I'd be interested to know what his take on Flatbush's boundaries.
The only people who obsess about the exact boundaries of a neighborhood tend to be people who don't grow up here.
It's all speculation anyway. There are no formal boundaries to neighborhoods and they shift constantly.
I grew up in Bergen Beach. For me Flatbush started at the junction and ended until I started seeing white people again. Lol I used to take the b41 to the junction and the central library all through my youth and early 20s.
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