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NYC would be a lot less interesting without rent control and stabilization. Manhattan would become even more a yuppie playland and the poor would be banished to the crappiest parts of the outer boroughs with the longest commutes possible because their apartments could earn higher profit if they were converted to luxury units for the international elite. It's already happening, and rent control laws are one of the only barriers to total economic segregation.
Neighborhoods are more diverse because there's a grandma paying $97/mo for the same unit that a young professional pays $2,000 for. I think it's a good thing.
I found that to be one hell of a bad post in fact. So grandma rents and apt for $97 a month...but screw the LL..too bad for him! And her friend has a bargain apt in West illage..AND HE DOES NOT LIVE THERE and illegally rents it out I presume? Another winner! Furthermore, the tenants prefer to leave the apts in the 1955 state because "they don't want to improve the LL's property"...but when rent goes up...all of a sudden it is "my home" and "I have lived here for 40 years how can they do this to me in my home." Meanwhile..they are paying $97 bucks a month..rent goes up 3% (aka 3 bucks)..and they are on the cover of every paper " LL's seek to raise rents on Seniors" and every one casts their stones. In addition, they are ONLY paying $97 bucks, and STILL won't do anything to their apt...you would think with virtually free rent they would at least make the place habitable, upgrades, new appliances...they have been living free after all. But nope...why should they? Screw the LL....right? It's not mine after all right?
Let's face it...whether you want to admit it or not..if YOU were the LL and you have $97 rents in NYC...would you be saying "Oh well, that's just how it goes." Nope...you would realize that it is grossly unfair...you are not looking to get rich..but paying a fair share is..well..FAIR. The reality is that median rents in the city are about $850 bucks..whether you want to agree with that or not, or somehow believe that's not really true or not really accurate is your problem.
The assault on affordable housing is ludicrous...as people TODAY have a median rent of $860..and in some cases $529 like Spanish harlem. Yes if you want to live in Chelsea...you are gonna pay more..but across the city...housing IS reasonable and downright cheap. Don't think these super cheap apts are available..think again..as the poster said "One granny dies...her kid is getting it." So yet another person/generation will happily rape the LL..and no doubt not put a dime into the apt "cuz it's not his" and when rent goes up another $3 bucks..he will be the first proclaiming "This is my home...this is unfair and the LL is getting rich off of us."
Let's be real people...when the shoe is on the other foot..you would be having a different opinion. Rent stabilization was a good thing...but how can you possibly assert that $529 median rents in East Harlem, or $850 median rents in NYC is healthy, normal, good for the city, or for anyone besides those taking advantage of the system?
what about someone like myself. From NYC, living downsouth, trying to move back. You think I will find a 97, 529 or 850 a month rent? For those in the market for a place, 529, 850 and 97 buck a month rent is out. I don't have a grand mother to hand me down a nice, rent stabilized apartment and neither does 1,000s of others.
Yes I agree that the rent stabilization laws exist...and I dont expect you to pay market rents, as this is not in your current lease. But the troubling issues are these:
1-It is either your home or it is not. When rent goes up $3 bucks, don't scream bloody murder, and LLs are raping you which is absolutely untrue. And then out of the other side of your mouth don't say "I am not putting a dime into renovating/fixing LLs property." You want to have it which ever way suits you...is that fair?
2-Rents should reflect current market conditions, not market conditions of 30 years ago. This is reasonable and fair...so having $97 rents is clearly unreasonable and unfair..and grandma will happily tell you that..albeit only to her son, family, etc. Rent increases should reflect this, and 3% is abysmal. As a result, a reasonable person would begin to do away with rent stabilization, as it is clearly an undue burden on LLs, city, and the rest of NYC residents who subsequently have no access to 1,000,000 apts because TTs refuse to move for a variety of reasons.
3-I understand there are ways to improve efficiencies, however if you believe flourescent lights, and green rooves somehow making up for $529 rents...you have no concept of what it costs to own and operate anything, let alone a building in NYC.
4-There is an assumption that LLs are somehow rich and getting richer based on $829 rents in NYC!!! Where does this come from? There is no doubt that "You don't want to hear it"...and neither does any LL who has a building full of grannies paying $97 a month. Being fair and reasonable avoids hostility....and when you take the attitude that you are somehow entitled to rents that are grossly undermarket..is where therein lies the problem. Why do you deserve this? What makes you special or somehow better than everyone else? A fair and reasonable person acknowledges that rents are abysmally low...but screw the LL right? That attitude does not garner sympathy to your plight (your plight is demanding lifelong $97 rent in NYC by the way).
5-The buildings are poorly maintained for a reason. How can you possibly repair and maintain a building when you have people paying $829, or $529 , and the grannies paying $97? Let's be serious, a reasonable person would understand that the building will suffer, the quality of life will be poor, and nobody wins. But you do get to have virtually free rent...and it is all about the money after all...that's all that matters. Unless of course your ceiling collapses and you have no heat, then Eyewitness News is on the scene " Bronx resident live in squalor as LL has not repaired building in 5 years." Makes great headlines, but take a minute and think...the LL can't afford to do it! The Tenants live virtually free but they don't take a dime to try and make things better for themselves..."it ain't my house..I ain't improving HIS property." Nice attitude.
Conclusion:
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Buildings are falling apart because LLs dont make enough in rent to maintain them....now when was the last time this happened? Oh that's right..the 70s....what happened then? Something to think about.
Guess what Wildstyle..what is the probelm with paying market rate for apts? Why do you feel entitled to pay $500 a month for a 1 bedroom apt in the richest city in the country, in the wealthiest country in the world. I don't understand the entitlement attitude..or that you somehow deserve to be here, or anywhere for that matter. What is wrong with living where you can afford?
And the fact remains, you can find apts for $850 bucks in NYC....there are quite a few actually. The issue is....do you think you deserve to be in the best areas with a short commute and a 2 bedroom apt? Or do you rent an apt where you can afford in the city for $850 a month and be happy? If so...there are plenty of $850 apts to be had....if you feel you deserve something else..therein lies the problem.
Guess what Wildstyle..what is the probelm with paying market rate for apts? Why do you feel entitled to pay $500 a month for a 1 bedroom apt in the richest city in the country, in the wealthiest country in the world. I don't understand the entitlement attitude..or that you somehow deserve to be here, or anywhere for that matter. What is wrong with living where you can afford?
And the fact remains, you can find apts for $850 bucks in NYC....there are quite a few actually. The issue is....do you think you deserve to be in the best areas with a short commute and a 2 bedroom apt? Or do you rent an apt where you can afford in the city for $850 a month and be happy? If so...there are plenty of $850 apts to be had....if you feel you deserve something else..therein lies the problem.
you seem very passionate about this topic which is understandable but lets not get into assumptions about what the other does or doesn't think. As for what I feel/think. Market value for rent or a home isn't what someone dreams up, or pulls out of their back side. Rent is based on what the market can bear. Just like the housing market which we are now seeing go up in smokes, so will renting if rent is not inline with what people make in a given area/community. For example, a home in a given area historically should be no more than 2 to 3.5 times the average annual income of a given area. If people (households) are making 60,000 on average in a area then they can afford 120,000 to 210,000 dollars for a home in a given area. Anything above that is over priced. I won't go into how prices got here because its off topic but the point is, there are formulas for this (rent/mortgages). Just look up what economist have to say on the subject, it has been said millions of times. Now, I am not saying I need to live in the best area, I don't. What I do need is a safe area both from crime and from health hazards. I shouldn't have to pay a arm and a leg for such things. That is all I am saying. I am from NYC and I know live in South Florida and BOTH places are well over priced. In Broward Country (fort lauderdale) more people left last year than came in. NYC is about a year and a half behind us in this housing mess. If NYC isn't careful it could find itself in the same situation. Somethings gotta give, thats all I am saying.
the LL can cut costs on their buildings by putting in green roofs, solar panels, switching from oil to gas, using fluoresecent lighting...
Green roofs and solar panels are extremely expensive improvements. I don't think the owner receives a return on their investment for many years. Natural gas prices have gone up too, but I don't have any idea of the costs to convert.
Owners and renters should share the costs of the increased operating expenses, but of course everyone wants the best deal for themselves and in general don't care about the other. Hence the yearly fight about the rent guidelines board increases.
Being neither a renter nor a landlord, I see can see both sides. I don't think the $92/month rent is at all fair, and I don't think this "deal" should be passed down to family members. But I also don't think that rents should be increased beyond the rates of inflation, to basically whatever the landlord wants, and drive people from their homes. There has to be some semi-happy median where the landlord makes money and the renter won't see his rent increased 30 or 40% when he renews his lease.
Prices are not only based on computer formulas, they are based on supply and demand, as well as emotions, feelings, and other intangible variables. If you believe that markets should somehow adhere to the 2.5 or 3 multiple of value, or whatever other formula you believe is fair, it does not work that way, and neither do most commodities, like the Stock market, oil, gas, food, etc. Prices are based on a host of factors, the most important being supply and demand.
Prices in NYC would never be that way if there were not a demand supporting the prices. Period. If you believe it is not worth it to you...that's okay, but there are many others who do, and in fact believe things are still underprices, and as a result, they continue to support the market and drive pricing. At the end of the day..that is how life works on most things.
If you want to live in NYC on $850 a month, you are going to make sacrifices, but it sounds like at that price point it is not worth it to you. So why should the world accomodate you so that you can get what you feel you deserve at that price you deem fair? I don't get the entitlement attitude...if you want to live in NYC, and have whatever security, amenities, then you have to earn it...nobody else should have to subsidize you to provide you a lifestyle you feel you deserve. It seems quite simple to me.
Green roofs and solar panels are extremely expensive improvements. I don't think the owner receives a return on their investment for many years. Natural gas prices have gone up too, but I don't have any idea of the costs to convert.
Owners and renters should share the costs of the increased operating expenses, but of course everyone wants the best deal for themselves and in general don't care about the other. Hence the yearly fight about the rent guidelines board increases.
Being neither a renter nor a landlord, I see can see both sides. I don't think the $92/month rent is at all fair, and I don't think this "deal" should be passed down to family members. But I also don't think that rents should be increased beyond the rates of inflation, to basically whatever the landlord wants, and drive people from their homes. There has to be some semi-happy median where the landlord makes money and the renter won't see his rent increased 30 or 40% when he renews his lease.
If they made it mandatory that LLs can not rent to anyone who's annual income does not equal 40 times the monthly rent that would stop all this crap. It would ensure that rent is inline with incomes. Same as it should be law that you can't get a mortgage that is not income verified and it should be that the house can not be more than 2 to 3.5 times annual income.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guywithacause
Prices are not only based on computer formulas, they are based on supply and demand, as well as emotions, feelings, and other intangible variables. If you believe that markets should somehow adhere to the 2.5 or 3 multiple of value, or whatever other formula you believe is fair, it does not work that way, and neither do most commodities, like the Stock market, oil, gas, food, etc. Prices are based on a host of factors, the most important being supply and demand.
Prices in NYC would never be that way if there were not a demand supporting the prices. Period. If you believe it is not worth it to you...that's okay, but there are many others who do, and in fact believe things are still underprices, and as a result, they continue to support the market and drive pricing. At the end of the day..that is how life works on most things.
If you want to live in NYC on $850 a month, you are going to make sacrifices, but it sounds like at that price point it is not worth it to you. So why should the world accomodate you so that you can get what you feel you deserve at that price you deem fair? I don't get the entitlement attitude...if you want to live in NYC, and have whatever security, amenities, then you have to earn it...nobody else should have to subsidize you to provide you a lifestyle you feel you deserve. It seems quite simple to me.
you would be absolutly wrong there. It worked for decades until this whole exotic loan thing kicked up. When that formula was abandoned we ended up with a bubble the likes of which this country has never seen. I have one of my degrees in economics and I assure you, econ 101 teaches you that NOTHING can be more than what the local economy can handle. Well the price can go up but it will not be sustained for very long. Yes, land is at a premium in NYC but the flaw with that thinking is, you forget about the rest of the United States with jobs, cheaper housing and rent. So the cost of rent and homes in NYC is not inelastic. I can't argue with you on any of this though, my best suggestion is to just do some research IF you like, or not. As for the demand statment, again you should research how that demand has been sustained up to this point, and then you will be able to determine if such prices are sustainable in the long run or not.
That is true...but the NYC market is driven by th GLOBAL market, and not just the local market. As someone who has taken economics, you should also be well versed in supply and demand, and therefore should be aware that simply saying prices should be some multiple to be healthy is nonsense. Furthermore, you should also be aware that what may have worked for the past 5,000 years may not work today and may not be applicable at all.
Nobody can forecast whether prices can be sustained or not in the longrun..this is all our best guesses and based on historical data that may/may not represent the future, however what we can say is that prices are still being sustained in NYC, and no crash has happened as of yet. What we can also say is that Global demand has remained quite strong for housing in NYC, which has supported pricing in the city, and increased it in many cases. We can also say that NYC is now growing in population, and demand for housing, especially "affordable" housing, is escalating exponentially, putting further upward pressure on rental prices, and providing some support for home prices as well.
As someone with an economics degree, you should be aware of all these things. Where did you get this degree from? The economic principles are tried and true, but real life takes into account a host of other variables, intangible and tangible, that are not accounted for in these formulas. Oil prices should be at $50 a barrel, the stock market should really be about 8,000 points, gas should be around $1.75 a gallon, a 2bedroom apt in the upper east side should be $1,400, but this is not the way our society functions. There are other factors that affect demand and pricing that is not accounted for in your economics class....and these factors are what are driving and sustaining pricing on a host of commodities..and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.
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