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When everyone is paying out the nose for overpriced electricity from a grid that was never designed to carry the load put on it (and which will likely lead to black/brownouts), will the idiocy of these rules be apparent.
The current city grid, which can't be easily expanded since its mostly underground, is going to carry the load of all the heat generation natgas now does (the city is pushing all larger buildings, including residential, to convert to electric heat)? Add to that the ridiculous push for electric cars, which will also have to charge from the grid.. This is going to be a huge, expensive mess that will ultimately fail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
This is one of instances where the motives leading up to this incidentally lead to economically reasonable policy, but also one of the many instances where that completely is beyond your comprehension. We at least agree that there are idiots who destroy the city like those who so confidently weigh in on things they have no goddamn understanding of.
When everyone is paying out the nose for overpriced electricity from a grid that was never designed to carry the load put on it (and which will likely lead to black/brownouts), will the idiocy of these rules be apparent.
The current city grid, which can't be easily expanded since its mostly underground, is going to carry the load of all the heat generation natgas now does (the city is pushing all larger buildings, including residential, to convert to electric heat)? Add to that the ridiculous push for electric cars, which will also have to charge from the grid.. This is going to be a huge, expensive mess that will ultimately fail.
The things said in this post are almost too technically ignorant to respond to save for the fact that this is a public forum where some sense of duty to the general public to warn them about technical incompetency warrants a response.
New construction and new gas hook-ups for gas require new hookups to service them (obviously). The same goes for electricity which would not be optional for modern day living while gas hookups are very much optional since there are better non-gas substitutions. Expanding grid capacity and maintenance of such requires time and resources which either electricity or natural gas do except natural gas is more expensive per kWh of energy and per household *and* is far less versatile in both its use *and* more restrictive in the productive avenues for generation. It is insane to continue with this. And yea, a lot of grid delivery is underground, but almost certainly some people have seen it above ground as well--what in the world are you thinking that natural gas wouldn't also need to be delivered and with that almost no reasonable way to deliver it above ground? What's the great safe way to deliver massive amounts of natural gas that's below ground? What ridiculously stupid reasoning needs to go into dinging electrical delivery that can go both above and below ground versus a much less versatile both in source and usage natural gas lines that almost necessarily have to go below ground? What ridiculous assbackwards hovel were you living in before NYC where you had natural gas delivered in overhead lines? Where even did you have the counter example of a natural gas vehicle that you can fill up straight from the gas hookup?
And yea, electric cars will have to charge from the grid which is why the priority should be placed on improving the grid rather than diverted to gas. What great consumer passenger vehicles do you know of that need endpoint natural gas delivery? Certainly even the dumbest and most out to lunch of us know that there are myriad electric plug-in vehicles out there and that there are almost no such equivalent for natural gas in regards to consumer passenger vehicles. Is there anyone on this board who is so completely ignorant that they'd otherwise and that there is a push for natural gas in use for consumer passenger vehicles? Even among members of this forum you've had someone reverse course on EVs once it became really, really stupidly apparent and has instead become a frothing Elon Musk acolyte? What kind of derpyderp eejit committee is pushing this? Has there been any thought informed by any knowledge put into that post?
Even the natural gas that's generated within NYC in landfills is used for the much more useful capture and then electrical generation, which adds to the stupidity of pretending that more end use pipelines somehow makes sense. I think I remember your previous posts from similar topics and these are exemplary of the kind of brick wall obstinacy the US faces while our competitors have actual goddamn scientists at or near their helms. I really hope this forum has some kind of self-selection bias where the many of the most confidently scientifically illiterate people gravitate towards, because otherwise this country is in bad shape. Your posts are terribly upsetting as they imply a citizenry that's completely lost the plot and any reasonable understanding of anything approaching engineering, physics, or economics and yet are also completely unaware of such. Bugsy at least understands it even if he doesn't like some of it from the start, but despite the needling, I think he overall gets it even when there's a lot of snark.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 12-15-2021 at 11:20 PM..
And yea, electric cars will have to charge from the grid which is why the priority should be placed on improving the grid rather than diverted to gas.
Even the natural gas that's generated within NYC in landfills is used for the much more useful capture and then electrical generation, which adds to the stupidity of pretending that more end use pipelines somehow makes sense. I think I remember your previous posts from similar topics and these are exemplary of the kind of brick wall obstinacy the US faces while our competitors have actual goddamn scientists at or near their helms. I really hope this forum has some kind of self-selection bias where the many of the most confidently scientifically illiterate people gravitate towards, because otherwise this country is in bad shape. Your posts are terribly upsetting as they imply a citizenry that's completely lost the plot and any reasonable understanding of anything approaching engineering, physics, or economics and yet are also completely unaware of such. Bugsy at least understands it even if he doesn't like some of it from the start, but despite the needling, I think he overall gets it even when there's a lot of snark.
First off, Calm down.
The main problem with what you're saying is right now, as far as I'm aware, there are no plans to provide major power line capacity upgrades. Converting heat and cooking to all electric will require orders of magnitude more electricity than most NYC residences currently use. Coupled with EVs, I will ask again: where is this electrical capacity coming from? Is there a timeline for when the power grid will be updated?
You wanna talk about competitors? China sure doesn't seem to care about mandating every new building in Shanghai to be gas-free. In fact, they're too busy opening up more coal fired power plants. India is betting on a nuclear future. Russia is using nat gas. None of them are crying about Joe Shmoe using gas to cook.
The reality, Oy, is that for now, fossil fuels and nuclear are the only two things that can reliably run civilization. Unless you want to live in a state of permanent energy uncertainty with random blackouts and brownouts (third world or worse).
The main problem with what you're saying is right now, as far as I'm aware, there are no plans to provide major power line capacity upgrades. Converting heat and cooking to all electric will require orders of magnitude more electricity than most NYC residences currently use. Coupled with EVs, I will ask again: where is this electrical capacity coming from? Is there a timeline for when the power grid will be updated?
You wanna talk about competitors? China sure doesn't seem to care about mandating every new building in Shanghai to be gas-free. In fact, they're too busy opening up more coal fired power plants. India is betting on a nuclear future. Russia is using nat gas. None of them are crying about Joe Shmoe using gas to cook.
The reality, Oy, is that for now, fossil fuels and nuclear are the only two things that can reliably run civilization. Unless you want to live in a state of permanent energy uncertainty with random blackouts and brownouts (third world or worse).
I mean, in person I'm calm enough because we squirreled enough away to not be worried regardless of what happens even as millennials, so much that I can be downright charming in person. This doesn't change that there are some countries where a substantial amount of core leadership has a lot of scientists and academics at their helm.
No one cares what you're aware of--the amount of grid resiliency and upgrades in the US aren't great, but they are undergoing in most parts including New York, on what are a greater concentration on electrical grid improvements than we've seen in a while and meanwhile for some of us we have solar+storage such that electrical, or even sillier, gas connections aren't necessary though still sensible enough for the electrical grid since there's a bit of money to be made staying connected. Regardless, if you think think what requires orders of magnitude expansion of capacity and generation for electrical heating and EVs, then your math is completely off or you don't understand what orders of magnitude actually means. It has never even in the wildest calculations required such even instantaneously and thus certainly not for what would be a decades long endeavor from now.
And yea, let's talk about competitors. China has mandated buildings to be gas-free just by not providing gas pipelines for endpoint use. We owned/own property in various parts of China and lived in Shanghai among other places while property values appreciated an actual order of magnitude (the actual definition of order of magnitude, not whatever you think an order of magnitude means). Running natural gas pipelines for endpoint use was mostly regarded as ridiculous. What in the world are you talking about here? If you're so damn familiar with China, then tell me about your gas hookups there? What kind of idiocy would drive someone to do something as uneconomical and potentially stupidly as setting up a gas hookup into their home in China?
Did you also know that coal is not the same thing as natural gas? They are actually not the same thing and have different properties! Amazing, I know, and I hope you one day can make the distinction. Did you also know that since the last couple decades in China, people don't burn coal in the house for any reason at all anymore and instead the coal is burned to produce electricity in large powerplants? What is the equivalency you're trying to draw here or is this an exercise in demonstrating how little you know about China and/or fuels?
Russia is a natural gas exporter and their economy resides almost exclusively on resource export--you know what they do with their own resources? They use more economical means in order to have more for export!
It's rich that you're talking about third world or worse blackouts given that the US among developed countries has the most frequent and long-lasting blackouts and brownouts--this is even compared to developed countries where the majority, even the vast majority, of their electricity generation is via renewable resources. This should be apparent and known among anyone whose actually taken a look at pie charts of electrical generation among developed countries, but it is certainly now the habit of this forum to post first, think never.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 12-16-2021 at 12:10 AM..
The main problem with what you're saying is right now, as far as I'm aware, there are no plans to provide major power line capacity upgrades. Converting heat and cooking to all electric will require orders of magnitude more electricity than most NYC residences currently use. Coupled with EVs, I will ask again: where is this electrical capacity coming from? Is there a timeline for when the power grid will be updated?
You wanna talk about competitors? China sure doesn't seem to care about mandating every new building in Shanghai to be gas-free. In fact, they're too busy opening up more coal fired power plants. India is betting on a nuclear future. Russia is using nat gas. None of them are crying about Joe Shmoe using gas to cook.
The reality, Oy, is that for now, fossil fuels and nuclear are the only two things that can reliably run civilization. Unless you want to live in a state of permanent energy uncertainty with random blackouts and brownouts (third world or worse).
The bolded is the reason why they have been accustomed to wearing masks outside for at least the past 15 years.
__________________
"The man who sleeps on the floor, can never fall out of bed." -Martin Lawrence
No, your yammering on about heat pumps is what did it.
I should apologize to you, as I was very rude. Your topics are informative and they've got a good golden age of newspapers / yellow journalism tabloid style that I appreciate. You, Aeran, Cida, SeventhFloor and a handful of others actually post enough interesting tidbits for this to not be just an echo chamber of idiocy, so that's been great. I don't think I was wrong on the technical bits, but the delivery was a lot meaner than necessary, and I definitely don't think you're an idiot though the tone and implications of my post suggested otherwise. Thanks, and I'm sorry for being such an ass.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 12-16-2021 at 01:06 AM..
Natural gas is not going anywhere.
A 500 year supply right under our feet.
Used in vehicles. Works like a charm.
Oh but fracking. Stupid me!
Remember those old locomotives?
What do you think our country was built on?
Coal ....Coal ......Coal....that too suppressed
by our greenies.................
Solar power has come along way but not
far enough to make Americans go off the grid
and why would any politico support that anyway?
Unless he wants to raise the price of panels to thousands
per square foot?
Inventive fuel cells supplying limitless power such as
impressive nuclear power and hydro suppressed
by government,big oil. Patents pulled. People dying
under mysterious circumstances.
Finally....battery powered vehicles.
( got give credit to Elon) heading in the right direction but
still 500 miles short in range and 8 hours short in recharging
before becoming a household name.
Just remember this.
Anytime a War is called...all the stops get pulled and gasoline
comes raining down in buckets on our population...............
It's has great healing powers......you know....
Last edited by Mr.Retired; 12-16-2021 at 04:56 AM..
Is there comparison about electricity being cheaper for general user? Last time I looked at dryers, the ones with natural gas were considerably cheaper to operate. It is the case for stoves I believe as well, I am not sure about heating.
any electric thing that generates heat is expensive for electricity.
my little electric heater, when i use it, my electric bill does go up, i can tell the difference.
no one would want electric heat, the electric rates are already thru the roof, so thats not a good idea.
the dryer, using electric is not cheap either, id use a cloithesline instead if i couldnt have a gas dryer.
gas stoves are better as well, electric stoves suck, IMO.
Though I do not welcome most government intrusions, the theory behind this plan works. The problem is that in practice there will not be enough electrical capacity to handle it. The city council knows this but hopes to use the policy to force industry to solve that issue.
Besides capacity, what about blackouts due to emergencies? These do still happen. One constant during winter blackouts has always been heat. Now that won't be the case for people in new construction homes.
So many questions:
Why do 7+ story buildings still get to use natural gas?
Why is nuclear, the power source that could've solved "climate change" decades ago, a near non-starter?
What will the city council say when homeowners use generators which are far less efficient and "clean" than natural gas?
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