Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Some will claim that this is racist, but that's just an easy cop out, you've pretty much nailed how it is
it's not about income, some of those dealers make huge amounts of money, it is mostly cultural, mainly many of the thugs are not educated, come out of homes with little of no family struture and they just don't share the morals most people have.
Are you aware of how drugs come into this country??
C'mon, the guy is from Italy. I don't really think any of us are in a position to tell him that he is unsophisticated.
Yea, (since we're generalizing, here) all Italian's are the epitome of class. Jersey Shore, anyone? Bensonhurst?
Tullio, I traveled to Italy a few times and I was robbed, pickpocketed, and had had many really expensive things stolen from me but I can't phantom hating an entire group of people because of a few bad experiences. Italy is the only country in Europe where I've had bad luck but I love Italy ..it's awesome and always look forward to my next visits. I've even been to a few countries in Africa for missionary and I was never robbed or pick pocketed so ethnicity has nothing to do with bad behavior.
The problem is, you are living lower-income places like Harlem near the housing projects and whether Mead wants to believe it or not, income and education plays a large roll in "behavior" or lack thereof.
You're in New York City, it's impossible to avoid people of color. Most African-American and Latino people I know are well behaved people and I find it strange that you would hate an entire race and dismiss "95%" of them as hooligans (when in fact you've only dealt with .00001% of the African-American population) really sad and pathetic.
Wow, this thread really aired out the personal beliefs about race.
Personally, Tullio, I don't think NYC may be the place for you. I may be wrong, but it seems that you can't afford the "nice white" areas. You want class and sophistication, head to Park Avenue and Central Park West and other such heavy-pocketed areas.
If you can't afford these areas, I suggest you high tail it out of NYC. This isn't the place for close-minded individuals.
I keep on seeing all of these comments about lower-income white neighborhoods. I'm very familiar with some of the more modest, income-wise, white areas of the city.
In none of these neighborhoods have I seen crime, open-air drug dealing, gangs, or violence like in bordering Black and Hispanic neighborhoods.
If you want to you, you can pretend that this is an income specific issue. You can say that poor whites = poor blacks = poor hispanics, etc.
But the reality on the ground is that I just don't see it. I think the higher levels of crime and violence in black and hispanic neighborhoods is a cultural difference from white people that only loosely correlates to income.
These are not cultural differences those are financial differences. And many of the so called poor white areas in this city aren't as poor as the poor Latino and Black areas of this city. In fact, most of them are working, lower middle class areas. There aren't as many project developments, lower income housing, but there are more homeowners, more family owned and operated stores, shops and businesses etc. This isn't the case in the poorest sections of black/Latino neighborhoods where there is less homeownership and even less opportunity to do so. (In the case of Harlem and other neighborhoods like this, when the opportunity arose, the prices were skyrocketed well out of the reach of even a working crime-free individual or family). So you're really comparing apples and oranges.
Also, crime is committed in all parts of the city. From the posh avenues to the grittiest side streets. The type of crime committed is usually what separates the classes. Drug dealers sell out in the open on the corner in the hood, but they go door to door to make sales on the UES/UWS. A drug dealer is still a drug dealer and a spade is still a spade. Crime is still being committed, people are still being hurt but it's just not as out in the open as it is in certain black/Latino neighborhoods.
And lastly, to correlate crime and violence to a person's race or culture, is very racist. Your argument is essentially saying that blacks and Latinos are more pre-disposed to crime. Which is not true and is quite insulting, and racist.
One thing to remember about the crime stats comparing races is that they deal in fractions of a percent. 99%+ people of any race do not commit rapes or murders, but within that 1% blacks are several times more likely than whites to do so. So while yes there is a greater likelihood, it's all within 1% of either population.
i was going to close this thread but decided to leave it open, as i thought it would help to dispel some beliefs.
as far as good/bad neighborhoods in the city, i think we can agree on the fact that income has a huge part to play in it, race does not at all.
for those not familiar with south boston, you should do a little research on that neighborhood. high crime, drug dealing, lots of white people (irish americans) living in the projects. now they're experiencing gentrification. kinda fascinating to me because i know of no neighborhood that parallels this in nyc. at least in today's age.
__________________
"The man who sleeps on the floor, can never fall out of bed." -Martin Lawrence
Wild Style, I have posted about the difference between lower class / working class Hispanic and black (especially African-American) areas in both this forum and in the Miami forum and through both my personal observations and through empirical data (mostly on crime) I have concluded that there IS a difference between African-American lower income areas and lower income areas of other races / ethnicities. Most black people are good people who want the best for their families. However, this is a substantial minority of African-Americans in this country whose violence, use of drugs, low level of motivation, etc. have such a terrible affect on their neighborhoods that millions of black children growing up in this country area exposed to an environment of astronomical dropout rates, teen pregnancy, use of weapons and drugs, and broken families (upwards of 75%) to which no other large ethnic/racial group in this country is exposed. Many of these children - who likely would have turned out to be successful productive members of society if they had grown up elsewhere - fall victim to their surroundings and perpetuate a vicious cycle.
Are there areas and sub-cultures of non-Hispanic white people who fall victim to the same cycle? Of course, but not on a large scale that is known to the modern African-American ghetto. Are there Hispanic areas where children fall victim to this on a large scale? Unfortunately, there are in select areas of the country, New York City included. However, this is less common and more contained to certain Hispanic groups, mostly to Puerto Ricans and Dominicans. These groups moved to bad neighborhoods and, as controversial as this may sound, their youth assimilated to African-American youth. Why didn't this happen to Cubans? Well, they tended to live in non-ghetto neighborhoods of the City and eventually almost all of them moved to the suburbs. What about the Mexicans? I just had a huge debate about this a few days ago (check my post history) and it seems that the Mexican yough who are growing up in now-"Hispanic" (read: Dominican and Puerto Rican) areas in northern Manhattan and the Bronx are assimilating to the neighborhood kids who assimilated to the African-American kids before them. Unfortunately, there will be Mexican kids who fall victim to the ways of the African-American (and now Dominican and Puerto Rican) ghetto.
You may still be asking why I say there's a difference between lower income African-American areas and Hispanic areas. The reason, simply put, is that lower income Hispanic areas which haven't really experienced the negative aspects of the culture of the African-American ghetto have lower crime rates, higher graduation rates, and lower rates of broken families and marriages. These Hispanic neighborhoods (like the European neighborhoods before them) are revolving doors in which immigrants come in, achieve economic success, leave for another neighborhood, and are replaced by a new batch. You see this in Miami's Little Havana and Sweetwater; you do NOT see (on a large scale) in Miami's Overtown and Liberty City (black neighborhoods). Here in New York, the analogy is complicated by certain Hispanic groups (read: Dominicans and Puerto Ricans) who have actually assimilated to the street culture of African-American youths in the ghetto. It is really a shame what has happened to these groups who grow up in bad neighborhoods here in New York; but there is a difference between them and their peers who grow up in nice areas or in the suburbs. That brings me to my next point.
The way someone turns out is all about environment and culture. Put a black child in a wealthy suburb of Atlanta and watch him shine. Put him in the South Bronx and his chance of succeeding may only be half of what it was as his peer growing up in the suburbs. I'm sure the same could be said about a non-Hispanic (or for that matter, Hispanic) white kid who grows up in a ghetto. Raise this child in Scarsdale, NY or Coral Gables, FL and see what happens - there's likely to be a difference in result. As many good, successful people come out of the ghetto, there is an equal amount that doesn't make it out successful or even alive.
Low income Asians in California are selling drugs and gang banging. Near west side chicago low income whites drug dealing among other things. Areas in Brooklyn with low income eastern Europeans selling drugs, prostitution and other crimes. Chicago one of the Arab enclaves drugs are being dealt out of their stores. The problem with your theory is, number wise there are more African Americans than there are of these other ethnic groups. So to compare numbers is nonsensical to say the least. You and a lot of other people need to do research. I think Obama said it best, the internet has tons of information, the problem is, people do not know how to sift out the good from the bad information. My info on Chicago comes via my father in law who worked with law enforcement up until a few years ago. He also worked out in California before Chicago. There is a excellent book by a Asian American guy showing the statistics on Asian Americans and the affects of poverty on these groups. If I remember the name I would post it (not that many here would bother to crack open a book). Another thing that will come from research (which many seem to be short on) is the types of crime people are committing based on area and ethnicity. Had a uncle in Lefrek City, a lot of domestic violence with some of the Europeans that were living over there (not sure if they are Russian or what). I think a lot of the people attempting to sound like authorities on NYC have one problem. They are either not from the city originally or they don't venture outside their own neighborhoods much (I mean besides going to Manhattan), which is common.
That link shows Florida crime states (couldn't find dade info). They didn't separate Hispanics from white and black so some of those numbers are skewed against whites and blacks in that regard I am sure. I wish I could find the report for Miami rapes and who was committing them, that would shut a lot of that nonsense you are talking up. People do crime, I don't care what color they are and generally speaking it is economically based, period. For not to recent history on NYC as you guys parents about some of those areas that are now cleaned up and who was doing what. I am born and raised in NYC and I think a lot older than some of you so maybe your parents can help to clean out some of the ignorance a lot of you seem to have. Or maybe Guywithacause can come in with the assist, I think he is a bit older too.
Wild Style, I have posted about the difference between lower class / working class Hispanic and black (especially African-American) areas in both this forum and in the Miami forum and through both my personal observations and through empirical data (mostly on crime) I have concluded that there IS a difference between African-American lower income areas and lower income areas of other races / ethnicities. Most black people are good people who want the best for their families. However, this is a substantial minority of African-Americans in this country whose violence, use of drugs, low level of motivation, etc. have such a terrible affect on their neighborhoods that millions of black children growing up in this country area exposed to an environment of astronomical dropout rates, teen pregnancy, use of weapons and drugs, and broken families (upwards of 75%) to which no other large ethnic/racial group in this country is exposed. Many of these children - who likely would have turned out to be successful productive members of society if they had grown up elsewhere - fall victim to their surroundings and perpetuate a vicious cycle.
Are there areas and sub-cultures of non-Hispanic white people who fall victim to the same cycle? Of course, but not on a large scale that is known to the modern African-American ghetto. Are there Hispanic areas where children fall victim to this on a large scale? Unfortunately, there are in select areas of the country, New York City included. However, this is less common and more contained to certain Hispanic groups, mostly to Puerto Ricans and Dominicans. These groups moved to bad neighborhoods and, as controversial as this may sound, their youth assimilated to African-American youth. Why didn't this happen to Cubans? Well, they tended to live in non-ghetto neighborhoods of the City and eventually almost all of them moved to the suburbs. What about the Mexicans? I just had a huge debate about this a few days ago (check my post history) and it seems that the Mexican yough who are growing up in now-"Hispanic" (read: Dominican and Puerto Rican) areas in northern Manhattan and the Bronx are assimilating to the neighborhood kids who assimilated to the African-American kids before them. Unfortunately, there will be Mexican kids who fall victim to the ways of the African-American (and now Dominican and Puerto Rican) ghetto.
You may still be asking why I say there's a difference between lower income African-American areas and Hispanic areas. The reason, simply put, is that lower income Hispanic areas which haven't really experienced the negative aspects of the culture of the African-American ghetto have lower crime rates, higher graduation rates, and lower rates of broken families and marriages. These Hispanic neighborhoods (like the European neighborhoods before them) are revolving doors in which immigrants come in, achieve economic success, leave for another neighborhood, and are replaced by a new batch. You see this in Miami's Little Havana and Sweetwater; you do NOT see (on a large scale) in Miami's Overtown and Liberty City (black neighborhoods). Here in New York, the analogy is complicated by certain Hispanic groups (read: Dominicans and Puerto Ricans) who have actually assimilated to the street culture of African-American youths in the ghetto. It is really a shame what has happened to these groups who grow up in bad neighborhoods here in New York; but there is a difference between them and their peers who grow up in nice areas or in the suburbs. That brings me to my next point.
The way someone turns out is all about environment and culture. Put a black child in a wealthy suburb of Atlanta and watch him shine. Put him in the South Bronx and his chance of succeeding may only be half of what it was as his peer growing up in the suburbs. I'm sure the same could be said about a non-Hispanic (or for that matter, Hispanic) white kid who grows up in a ghetto. Raise this child in Scarsdale, NY or Coral Gables, FL and see what happens - there's likely to be a difference in result. As many good, successful people come out of the ghetto, there is an equal amount that doesn't make it out successful or even alive.
I know that this post was not directed towards me so I hope I am not over stepping myself by responding to certain aspects of it. First thing, drug use and violence are not part of African-American culture (and I assume that when you utilize African-American you are talking about people in the Black diaspora). As far as I know and data supports, drug use is prevelant in many cultures and Blacks do not make up the majority of drug users but Blacks tend to be arrested for drugs at a higher percentage then any other group due to certain policies (which are not a part of this converstation). Their is a high crime rate in Mexico itself, which has nothing to do with Blacks so I don't think that somebody from Mexico who commits a crime is doing so because they "assimilated". It still appears to be socio-economic too me. Cubans that immigrated to the United States had more advantages then Puerto Ricans or Dominicans that immigrated, which can explain the differences between the groups as far as socio-economic status is concerned. From my understanding the United States provided 1.3 billion of direct financial assistance in the 60's to Cubans that immigrated, provided low cost loans for school, business loans for some that did not have credit etc. Too me, this has helped the Cuban community establish itself and thrive without the same type of hard ships that Puerto Ricans or Domininicans may have experienced, therefore allowing Cubans to move into the suburbs and be financially independent without certain stigmas being attached to them.
In contrast Puerto Ricans and Dominicans did not have this type of advantage and ended up living in areas that were depressed and experiencing, by default, some of the same issues that Blacks experienced. Not so much assimilation but a shared experience. When you are regulated into specific areas because this is the only place that you can live (which is not the current case) then you will experience some of the same issues and the end result will be approximately the same (at least that is my thought). As far as assimilation is concerned (and this is just from my experience), I don't see a lot of it going on. Blacks, Puerto Ricans and Dominicans have shared the same neighborhoods but it usually is dominated by one group or the other. Washington Heights was a Dominican neighborhood and even though Blacks may have lived there, Black culture was not prominent. Spanish Harlem was a Puerto Rican neighborhood and Puerto Rican culture was prominent so I don't really understand how residents in these neighborhoods assimilated into Black culture. The thing that I do see is that a lot of areas that Blacks, Puerto Ricans and Dominicans lived in were inner-city neighborhoods that had a range of issues from few banks, few good health care facilities, poor schools, poor housing and few visual opportunities to break the cycle of poverty. These are not excuses for what is happening today but they can shed a light on some of the issues. As far as crime, 40 years ago Blacks (and I include some Puerto Ricans and Dominicans in this since it is how the FBI stats are generated) were not the majority of inmates. Currently, Blacks make up the majority of inmates but even with that it boils down to 2.3 - 2.4% of the entire Black population. Why was there an increase, I don't know but some of it has to do wth the war on drugs and where the war on drugs took place. Granted there is a higher percentage of Blacks then Whites in prison and this is an issue that needs to be addressed but it is still a small minority of the population.
Be that as it may, there are issues within inner city neighborhoods that affect those neighborhoods in a negative manner. There are not a majority of people in those neighborhoods that have those issues though, it is basically a select minority that is visible that gives a bad impression of certain areas of the city. These are just my thoughts as I grew up in a middle class Black neighborhood where home ownership was the norm, lived in a predominately White neighborhood, upscale Black neighborhoods in Brooklyn, middle class Black neighborhod in the Bronx and currently a lower-middle class neighborhood (Crown Heights) in Brooklyn and I don't see overwhelming examples of the type of negativity that I believe you were referring to. Also, I may be incorrect, but your post appeared to lay the ills of violence, crime, drug use, poverty etc. at the foot of African-American culture and I respectfully disagree with that assessment.
Yea, (since we're generalizing, here) all Italian's are the epitome of class. Jersey Shore, anyone? Bensonhurst?
Italians sophisticated? Yes. Italian Americans? No.
Funny thing is some Italian-Americans like to put on airs and act llike their ***t don't stink.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jersey Shore, anyone? Bensonhurst? 
