moral, economic, social issues of gentrification

[futurebird]

I think that neighborhoods function best when they have a diverse rage of incomes. The rich-rich neighborhoods are just dead and no fun-- The poor neighborhoods are also dead-- the places that are best have a nice mix of people and a wide range of services, shops etc.

It seems that once a place gets this magic balance, though, it becomes popular and then it starts going down hill-- it become too expensive for newcomers to the city and the old folks get priced out. I think that the goal has to be to have diversity and room for everyone. I don't know the best way to do this, though.

[DITC]

There is no need for this. Why make EVERYTHING into a yuppy or hipster neighborhood? Oh thats right, it is moral duty to clear out the "god awful natives" and bring in people who have only seen this place on TV, since they should be entitled to a neighborhood over someone who was BORN AND RAISED here. I dont get you people. New York was built by the working class and the city's hot image was popularized by working class people. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS!!!!!

There was a balance. NY was GREAT in the 90s.

Originally Posted by NJ Chutzpah

LA, Chitown, NYC, and just about every great city in the world has also attracted people who just wanted to work

NYC has always had rich people, and Rich Nabes

there is no need for gentrification to begin with

The rich had their nabes, the hipsters had there nabes already, yuppies had their place

Originally Posted by futurebird

I think that neighborhoods function best when they have a diverse rage of incomes. The rich-rich neighborhoods are just dead and no fun-- The poor neighborhoods are also dead-- the places that are best have a nice mix of people and a wide range of services, shops etc.

It seems that once a place gets this magic balance, though, it becomes popular and then it starts going down hill-- it become too expensive for newcomers to the city and the old folks get priced out. I think that the goal has to be to have diversity and room for everyone. I don't know the best way to do this, though.

[ogplife]

While I am not a fan of gentrification (particularly in Harlem) I will touch on something that does not get touched upon here often. People that are being "pushed out" in many instances are a bit too complacent for my liking. If you have been renting somewhere for 15 - 20 years this should mean you had more than enough time to imrpove your educational standing, income, and save money to invest in the neighborhood you "love" so much before the gentrification happens. To me some people can be very hypocritical in this regard, even some of the people I know and love.

[solibs]

Originally Posted by DITC

There is no need for this. Why make EVERYTHING into a yuppy or hipster neighborhood? Oh thats right, it is moral duty to clear out the "god awful natives" and bring in people who have only seen this place on TV, since they should be entitled to a neighborhood over someone who was BORN AND RAISED here. I dont get you people. New York was built by the working class and the city's hot image was popularized by working class people. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS!!!!!

There was a balance. NY was GREAT in the 90s.

I agree, New York was great in the 90's.

OTOH, NY was built by immigrants. My family included. My dad's side started in Brooklyn and from there went to Long Island or Staten Island. From Staten Island they went to NJ or NC. From Long Island they went to California. Of those that went to NJ, they started out in Monmouth but now they're mostly in Ocean.

It's not a unique story by any stretch. Cities, regions, towns, neighborhoods, etc aren't set in stone. When my grandfather was growing up his neighborhood was all Italian. Now it's a mix of about 20 ethnicities. The neighborhood I live in was Italian with some Greek and Spanish mixed in. Up until the 70's it was considered more well-to-do than the across the tracks. Then it trended african-american, then vietnamese, then cambodian, now white and indonesian. Now the other side of the tracks is the more fashionable zip code.

[DAS]

Originally Posted by solibs

I agree, New York was great in the 90's.

OTOH, NY was built by immigrants. My family included. My dad's side started in Brooklyn and from there went to Long Island or Staten Island. From Staten Island they went to NJ or NC. From Long Island they went to California. Of those that went to NJ, they started out in Monmouth but now they're mostly in Ocean.

It's not a unique story by any stretch. Cities, regions, towns, neighborhoods, etc aren't set in stone. When my grandfather was growing up his neighborhood was all Italian. Now it's a mix of about 20 ethnicities. The neighborhood I live in was Italian with some Greek and Spanish mixed in. Up until the 70's it was considered more well-to-do than the across the tracks. Then it trended african-american, then vietnamese, then cambodian, now white and indonesian. Now the other side of the tracks is the more fashionable zip code.

There is one big difference concerning the move of the European immigrants and their descendants in comparison to move of the Black and Latin peoples out of Harlem, Washington Heights, and parts of Brooklyn. The White people moved because they chose to and were moving to something better, leaving what they had behind for others. Some Black and Latin people are moving to something worse because they have to.

No matter how anyone tries to use this comparison to make it all read better this is what it really is and everyone realizes it that is affected directly or indirectly by it.

[Dburgos0127]

Eight years later even more has changed. Some of the areas stated are not considered "ghettos" anymore and the gentrification of NYC continues. Welder is probably witnessing more non-union labor (unfair wages & undocumented workers) in the city building high end for the wealthy while public housing is constructed using union labor at double the cost.

[Bronxguyanese]

Originally Posted by Dburgos0127

Eight years later even more has changed. Some of the areas stated are not considered "ghettos" anymore and the gentrification of NYC continues. Welder is probably witnessing more non-union labor (unfair wages & undocumented workers) in the city building high end for the wealthy while public housing is constructed using union labor at double the cost.

The recession saw gentrification explode in NYC. Some thought gentrification of Harlem, South Bronx, and bedstuy would been halted. Cheap real estate prices during the crash coupled with low interest rates made reservations real estate in in NYC take off.

[NyWriterdude]

Originally Posted by Bronxguyanese

The recession saw gentrification explode in NYC. Some thought gentrification of Harlem, South Bronx, and bedstuy would been halted. Cheap real estate prices during the crash coupled with low interest rates made reservations real estate in in NYC take off.

Bingo. One factor in cheap real estate prices was all the foreclosures.

[NyWriterdude]

Originally Posted by jackson92186

I feel like this entire discussion is unnecessary, because its simply a matter of supply and demand. The city needs to simply allow more areas to develop, and bam, you got your supply for all the new residents that come in. Ideally, our older housing stock should be the affordable housing stock for immigrants, and for those who move into the city with wealth, there should be new, better constructed and more energy efficient housing. The question is where would this new housing be built. There are two areas in particular that would be entirely suitible for a huge amount of new development, given modest changes in infrastructure.

The first is third ave in the bronx. Since mass transit, in this city's case is subway access, is a prerequisite for high density development, the second ave subway could easily be extended up third ave going right under the harlem river where it terminates. A cut and cover method of construction could be used, as opposed to the more expensive tunnel boaring. The cost to bring it up to fordham road would probably be slightly over a billion. Sounds like a lot, but didn't we just spend a billion to build a stadium across the street from a larger, perfectly functional one (the house that ruth built)? If we can do that, surely the economic benefits of extending the subway would be worthy. Third ave has plenty of vacant land to build on, with potentially tens of thousands of new, better quality units.

The second is the atlantic ocean waterfront, around coney island and the rockaways. For the rockaways, high density development has been hindered by the fact that it is far from manhattan. However, if the LIRR extension to the A line in the rockaways is reactivated along with the proposed one seat ride from lower manhattan to JFK, it is conceivable the trip could be made in half an hour, making the area prime for high density development. And the other area is Coney Island. There are lots of vacant lots around there and simply needs to be served by an express train to speed the commute time to manhattan. Even better would be a light rail along the peninsula leading to the coney island terminal. This could put housing units that would meet this city's demands for years, and instead of new arrivals (with money) moving into older and occupied neighborhoods, they could simply be fueling development of new, much better housing that really should be a natural extension of this city's growth. I don't understand why this city hasn't taken a more proactive approach to development, because gentrification would not be happening here to the degree that most neighborhoods are no longer affordable for immigrants. Building a new housing stock will leave the older housing affordable, like it should be, for the many immigrants that continue to provide our country with its workforce.

The Second Avenue Subway extended up 3rd Avenue at the Bronx. They just barely agreed to do phase 2 which extends it to East Harlem. Next phases will be 3 and 4 to take it all the way downtown. I think there's no chance of seeing a subway under 3rd Avenue. The Second Avenue Subway might be extended to the Bronx as an elevated or above ground train using one of the underutilized train ROWs.

[NY343]

When is the 2nd avenue subway opening?