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Unions are rife with corruption, nepotism, discrimination, and favortism. Why exactly would you want to be a part of that? If you don't know somebody, it is tough to get into one. I would recommend stalking Union guys around a construction site, follow them to their watering hole, and make your way into their circle somehow, buying drinks, etc. That's about the only way.
Unfortunately, elected officials have their hands tied by the provisions of the Taylor Law.
In exchange for unions' giving up the right to strike, it prescribes a specific binding arbitration process to settle contract negotiation impasses. Either party can declare an "impasse" which sends the negotiation process to an arbitration panel that has a specific procedure and prescribed boundaries as to what factors can be considered in the negotiation.
The result is that it is nearly impossible for any elected official and union leader to actually sit down and productively negotiate reasonable solutions (nor do they have an incentive to do so). Since the arbitration process favors the status quo, it is not a solution either.
The real dollars-and-cents solutions can be achieved with very small sacrifices spread across a lot of employees, plus a just a dose of common sense, but this notion never enters into the convoluted arbitration process.
It is actually a cycle of raising taxes to cover the growing debt obligation of lifetime pensions/benefits/medical for a growing group that is living longer, which in turns puts a proportionately higher tax burden on the working/middle class who then must leave the area, decreasing the tax base/tax revenue, which in turn causes the need for higher taxes..and an and on.
I agree, pension plans are not sustainable especially with the down market. The state can't cover these costs for much longer. If I am not mistaken, you only have to contribute to the pension for 10 years and then after that the state covers the rest. Maybe the contribution should be for the life of your career and the contribution higher. I don't know how it works for certain city/state employees but OT should not be part of the calculation when determing the amount they receive. Also...they shouldn't be allowed to retire, collect a pension and get rehired as a "consultant"
Yikes,guys.
Please don't forget that a lot of us were hired being told " we can't pay you much at all but you will get benefits to help make up the difference . "
NYC teachers and cops are paid way, way below what they can get paid elsewhere and most people would simply not take the jobs if the benefits were not part of the package... unless the base pays were increased by quite a bit.
It is already almost impossible to keep decent teachers and cops working for the city because 1/2 of new hires flee to Westchester,LI or Jersey within 5 years despite the benefits because they get the same benefits and much bigger salaries elsewhere.This is already a big problem.
It is easy to think that you can solve all of New York City's problems by taking away benefits that are actually part of peoples pay package but it is a little more complicated than that.
How many( and what quality) teachers do you think you will get to go into schools in the South Bronx for $45,000 when they have a masters degree if they can get $60,000 in Westchester ?
How many( and what quality) cops will you find willing to put a target on their backs every day for 30,000 when they can start at 50,000 or 60,000 on LI ?
If you are going to eliminate the benefits you are going to have to increase the pay. Do you think that will keep your taxes low ?
I agree that the pay for police and firemen are a bit low in NYC (Suffolk PO are overpaid, sorry). The benefits such as 20 years and out make it worth it. Teachers I'm not so sure...$45K with plenty of holidays and summer off is not bad. As for other governmental employees, the pay is probably on par with what they do...though maybe slightly less but benefits make up for it many times over. Not saying that they should take all the benefits away...just make them more reasonable.
Contribute more to health ins premiums (Maybe it is the city employees that don't pay anything...Fred works at the MTA...state run)
Contribute more and indefinitely to the pension
I agree that the pay for police and firemen are a bit low in NYC (Suffolk PO are overpaid, sorry). The benefits such as 20 years and out make it worth it. Teachers I'm not so sure...$45K with plenty of holidays and summer off is not bad. As for other governmental employees, the pay is probably on par with what they do...though maybe slightly less but benefits make up for it many times over. Not saying that they should take all the benefits away...just make them more reasonable.
Contribute more to health ins premiums (Maybe it is the city employees that don't pay anything...Fred works at the MTA...state run)
Contribute more and indefinitely to the pension
I am a teacher.I pay into my medical coverage out of every pay check and always have.I have hardly ever used any of it.I never get sick.And if I do go to a doctor or get a prescription there is always a co-pay of at least 20 to 75 bucks for a DR and 10 to 50 bucks for a prescription.It is not FREE.
Not saying I won't ever use it but so far I have paid way,way more in than I have ever used.
The thing you forget about the salaries is that people just don't generally go through college and graduate school end even more most of the time to get a $45,000 job.That is just not reality.You might think it is ok " because of vacations and summers off" but I bet if you had a graduate degree and you were going to work in a school in a really bad neighborhood where you actually could get assaulted by a teenager with some kind of weapon, you wouldn't settle for it.
Many new teachers literally don't last a week.
I have a master's degree from Columbia University and I live in The Bronx. That should tell you something.I certainly don't feel like I am riding around on a gravy train.
Yikes,guys.
Please don't forget that a lot of us were hired being told " we can't pay you much at all but you will get benefits to help make up the difference . "
NYC teachers and cops are paid way, way below what they can get paid elsewhere and most people would simply not take the jobs if the benefits were not part of the package... unless the base pays were increased by quite a bit.
It is already almost impossible to keep decent teachers and cops working for the city because 1/2 of new hires flee to Westchester,LI or Jersey within 5 years despite the benefits because they get the same benefits and much bigger salaries elsewhere.This is already a big problem.
It is easy to think that you can solve all of New York City's problems by taking away benefits that are actually part of peoples pay package but it is a little more complicated than that.
How many( and what quality) teachers do you think you will get to go into schools in the South Bronx for $45,000 when they have a masters degree if they can get $60,000 in Westchester ?
How many( and what quality) cops will you find willing to put a target on their backs every day for 30,000 when they can start at 50,000 or 60,000 on LI ?
If you are going to eliminate the benefits you are going to have to increase the pay. Do you think that will keep your taxes low ?
Try to think it all through.
Ahh but here's the thing. The teachers / cops in LI actually do their jobs competently. LI public schools are much better than NYC public schools, and many parts of LI have much lower crime rates than many parts of NYC.
Lower crime + better schools = Increased desirability of the area --> More wealthy people want to move there. These wealthy people pay more taxes which can cover the cost of the higher salary / benefits of the LI teachers / cops.
Yes LI pays more but you also have to take an exam to be considered....
I agree with what you are saying Bluedog, but at the end of the day, the benefits are simply unsustainable without continually increasing taxes and curting services, which forces everyone out of the city that is not rich or very poor. Isn't that what is happening already, despite the fact that the increased taxes and poorer service have not started yet!
I don't think that anyone is going into union work (MTA/fire/cops/teachers/postoffice) etc to become RICH. However, quite a few of these groups can easily swing $85K+ per year within a few years, which is more than the majority in the private sector (median income is about $72,000, avg HH income is $42,000). But they do get into it specifically because the benefits are overhwelmingly generous, and after JUST 20 years of poor/mediocre work (you just can't get fired no matter what), you retire with full pension of upwards of $5,000+ per month (in many cases), and lifetime medical coverage for you AND you family. So you can be 24, "work" for 20 years, retire at 44, and hang out for the next 50 years getting paid, while the city (residents) fork over huge sums to pay for your medical expenses for you and your spouse while paying you $5,000+ per month. This isn't getting rich by any stretch, but they know how to work the system and play the game, and that's exactly what is happening. It's a colossal rape, and we as the taxpayers cannot sustain the ever growing herd of retirees for infinity.
I don't think that teachers and cops in LI are necessarily doing their jobs more competently in LI. Alot times its the quality of the students and their parents...not the teachers.
And they gotta take exams in nyc too
Quote:
The thing you forget about the salaries is that people just don't generally go through college and graduate school end even more most of the time to get a $45,000 job.That is just not reality.You might think it is ok " because of vacations and summers off" but I bet if you had a graduate degree and you were going to work in a school in a really bad neighborhood where you actually could get assaulted by a teenager with some kind of weapon, you wouldn't settle for it.
I see your point about working at a bad school. They really need different pay for teachers in certain subjects and certain areas. Someone teaching calculus or physics should be paid more than a phys ed teacher...someone teaching in the south bronx more than someone in...I dunno Douglaston in Queens.
As for going to grad school...you must have known that when you went to grad school for education, you knew what the salary was going to be.
The middle and upper middle class is not leaving NYC because of high property taxes,which is what funds the school system and the NYPD.
As a matter of fact,NYC has the lowest property taxes of anywhere around.Check out the property taxes rate on a $750,000 house anywhere in NYC and compare to almost any town in Nassau,Suffolk, Westchester or NJ. Middle class people in all the boroughs gladly sell their $750,000 houses with $3,000 to $5,000 tax bills and move to the above counties where they get really whopping tax bills of $15,000 to $25,000 on houses of the same value so it's not the taxes that they are concerned about.
The number one concern is the education of their kids and they fight to move into towns where the taxes are astronomical and where teachers are paid much more than in NYC.
In a sense,you get what you pay for.NYC has ridiculously low property taxes and invests almost nothing in it's schools so what do you expect ? Even with all the benefits that all of you are railing about NYC spends less than $10,000 per student per year on education while many Westchester and Nassau towns spend well over $20,000 per year per student.
Maybe,just maybe if good teachers and cops were paid better and more money was invested in the schools we would recruit better teachers and cops and the schools and streets would get better and middle class people would be happy to pay the higher taxes as long as they thought their kids were getting a good education and stay in the city.
All of this can be argued from both sides.And again,the middle class tax base is not leaving because of high property taxes.
And NYC Analyst,regarding teachers and cops in Westchester or Long Island doing their jobs competently : Do you have any idea how many of those teachers and cops are former NYC teachers and cops who left the city for a much easier working environment and much higher pay ?
Do you really think that the move to the suburbs made them more competent?I know literally dozens of former Bronx teachers who teach in Westchester now and they are the same teachers.
NYC is a virtual farm system for the suburban systems and it is a real shame( and big problem) that they leave for higher pay,less problems and not having to pay 1,000/yr out of pocket to buy their kids supplies that the school system won't supply.
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