Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion
I felt compelled to reply as I have been in law Enforcement many years now and have seen a thing or two about "Perception of the events" as opposed to what really transpired.
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Good, so in your experience of "Enforcing" that law, I can rightfully assume that you are well aware of what "FACTS" are. Lets check Princeton University's Definitions for "FACT" to get the "Ivy League" perspective on just what "Facts" are:
WordNet Search - 3.0 (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=fact - broken link)
So which "facts" do you present? Lets see...
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion
Without going to much into any one part of this conversation, I know these to be facts.
1. The sons were both armed
2. They were involved in an altercation in a bar
3. They engaged police, demonstrating thier intent to kill
4. They were shot and killed
5. Thier mother was not a saint
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I have searched extensively for proof of these "facts"; everywhere. All I see is NYPD testimony that the sons were both armed, which are allegations. If you come across anything that indeed makes this a fact, please post... I am waiting
Number 2 is ALMOST a fact. The NYPD never claimed that they were IN the bar, but OUT side of their bar (which ALSO happens to be in FRONT of their house) Reference:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10272008/news/regionalnews/2_brothers_killed_by_cops_shot_in_the_ba_135562.ht m
and reference:
Mom of brothers slain by cops: I want answers
So to clarify, NOBODY claims that the boys were ever in the club, not even the NYPD. So you have established a "fact" that not even the NYPD claims happened. Maybe we should be more careful next time and CHECK our facts
And as a "law enforcement" officer, I would hope that on a daily basis you would put as much work into INDEPENDENTLY analyzing an investigation accurately as I (the civillian) have.
So the actual fact? The boys were apparently involved in an altercation in front of their own house, which also happens to be the club in question, without ever entering the premises. Independent witnesses also hold this claim to be true.
Point #3 Based solely on NYPD testimony. Unless, are you claiming that NYPD is always EQUAL to fact? Please provide proof, (Reuters, Associated Press, wherever, give me anything) that these allegations have been proven and are now fact. Again, patiently waiting.
Point #4 FINALLY
A FACT
Yes, I agree, these boys WERE in Fact shot AND Killed. The Medical has confirmed that there were gun shot wounds AND that these boys were in fact Dead. So Yes, this point is indeed a proven Fact.
Point #5 I suppose if you are arguing on technicality, the woman has NOT literally applied for "Saint hood" (IF someone here Does know the Pope or a Bishop that can attest differently, please post
) If you are alluding to some sort of behavioral problems of the mother, please post a reference. So far I have not found any. Either way, IF you were to establish that point #5 WERE a fact, as a "law enforcement" study, you would be well aware that Point #5 would be irrelevant to the case as it would have no bearing on justification for the shooting.
WOW, If you are THIS confused about what the word "FACT" means, then this only shows further the SERIOUS problems that we face with incompetent and or biased law enforcement. I don't even have my Associates Degree, and yet I know that a fact is ONLY a fact if its been proven. Out of your "5 Facts" , 3 were pending allegations, 1 was an actual PROVEN false statement, and only 1 was indeed a Fact.
The irony is that you conveniently ignored the most important FACT in the investigation, that the medical Examiners have proven that the NYPD has given False Testimony. And yet this FACT doesn't seems to phase you. Perhaps it is too inconvenient. Please I Beg of you, show me where the mother's statements have ever been proven false. Just one lie. One. I haven't found one so far.
Based on that fact can I assume you are willing to admit that The mothers given statement holds greater credibility since it has not yet been proven false. And that the NYPD statement has LESS credibility since it has been proven FALSE. Now with the investigation more facts will be established undoubtedly.
However, in the PRESENT, are you willing to ADMIT that the mother's statement is MORE Credible than the NYPD statement?
If you cannot admit at least this in the PRESENT, than you are being intellectually dishonest and should not be in the position of law enforcement. "Law enforcement" requires integrity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion
True she lost two sons at once, but she set that wheel in motion many years ago when she chose her lifestyle over the good of her kids.
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I am curious what you mean. Not that it has bearing on the case. But still, since you like to throw it out there... Are there any SPECIFICS you care to share about this woman's lifestyle that bother you, actual documented examples would be nice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion
I am a realist in that I believe wholeheartedly that her sons were eventually going to kill or be killed for some foolish reason or cause privy only to those who ran in thier circle or group.
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Probably true, most kids in poverty, whether "bad" or good kids face such unfortunate circumstances. As a "law enforcement" officer, I suggest you already realize that its YOUR DUTY to serve AND Protect them ANYWAYS regardless of what their future fate may have been.
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Originally Posted by winterscorpion
This woman will get no sympathy from me as none is warranted.
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Very sad. Now why exactly is NONE warranted? VERY Curious. Do you not believe in Karma? Sadly many individuals who lack sympathy for others get none from their fellow man when faced with similar circumstance. [/quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion
So now the cops have to deal with killing two subjects and all the mental effects that has on a person, especially if they themselves are parents.
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I thought dealing with mental effects were part of their training and evaluation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion
Then they will have to face all the public scrutiny to include all the administrative sanctions that follow any deadly force incident.
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Yes that IS what we do in the United States of America, that is paramount in a democratic nation. Power is and MUST always be checked. The moment these checks are eliminated is the moment we become a dictatorial banana republic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion
My sympathy lies with the police who were FORCED to shoot them, not the mother.
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Ah I see. So you sympathize with an officer who is a PROVEN liar by scientific Evidence. Would you also say he was FORCED to give false testimony as well?
But No sympathy for a mother that had nothing to do with this incident, lost her children, and SO FAR has given Testimony that has held up consistently with independent witnesses and evidence. As a law enforcement officer, you DO like "EVIDENCE", right?"
All I can say is .....WOW... So THIS is what society has come to, emotions over logic and reason. Just tragic.
So you are willing to stick up for a cop with proven false testimony over a mother who lost her sons and has NOT been caught lying.
So why DO you hate her so much? IS it because she's black? To you is she just "1 of doze ghetto hoez"?, Or do you just simply enjoy defending "False Testimony"?
If the MOTHER had given False Testimony instead, would you stick up for HER? To protect liars over victims?
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion
One final comment, would she demand the same course of action be taken if her sons killed several police officers?
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IF her son's killed several police officers unjustly, than I should HOPE she would do the right thing. The news has shown quite a few thugs in Brooklyn robbing people, and old ladies, only to be kicked out of the house by their mom, or grandmom, and turned over to police. If I remember correctly, they were also black. I have no reason to believe this black mother wouldn't have also done the right thing as well should her son's have been guilty.
And if I were the "law enforcement" officer, I would try my hardest to get those boys locked away for a LONG time upstate. People who know me on this board know, I Don't have sympathy for thugs or criminals, for ANYONE who is wrong, whether gang banger or Cop, just lock em up and throw away the key.
I guess thats the difference between us. You will the support the cops right OR wrong, true OR False testimony. And I just can't do that. My conscience will not let me. And I need karma on MY side
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Food for thought..
