Cops shoot and Kill 2 Brothers (New York, York: buy, to live in, safest)

[SobroGuy]

I remember baylovers, but does this mean that the NYPD should not be held acountable for any of their actions? This is the same logic used for the mob...they "keep the neighborhood safe" but the reality is, they keep the neighborhood safe from OTHER criminals and ensure that they are the ONLY criminals in town. How is that better? We cannot accept the NYPD criminal element so as not to have OTHER criminals..that's not how it works. We expect the NYPD to serve and protect, not to serve and protect THEIR OWN INTERESTS! Let it be known that I am not one of the nonsensical and irrational cop haters, but the endless corruption and recent violence is highlighting YET AGAIN the sickness within the force. If you believe the answer is for cops to just do nothing like the 80s/90s, you are denying what the REAL problems are, as usual. A lack of leadership, a dysfunctional environment inside and outside the precincts, a lack of teamwork and trust inside and outside the precinct, rampant nepotism/sexism/racism/favoritism/etc, lack of resources, lack of accountability...the list goes on and on. Or we can just baylovers "solution" and have cops do nothing and just ignore the problems! Sounds like you should be a Union Boss with those kinds of "solutions."

[baylovers]

1. There was no criminal activity perpetrated by the officers.. so what "criminal interest" were these two officers protecting? The only thing they were protecting were the people of Brownsville against two armed thugs in the middle of the night.

2. You have consistently called for "new leadership" within the NYPD. What exactly does that mean? What do you know about leading a para-military police organization? What exactly is the proper leadership you expect? There has been a shift in leadership over the past decade, that is why crime is down so drastically. Commanders are are called on the carpet in Compstat, officers are routinely chastised for not producing enough summonses and arrests.

3. The salary issue was a major contributor of the lower standards among recruits. The applicant screening process has been compromised and they have allowed substandard people to join the department. The salary issue has forced too many qualified individuals to seek retirement & employment elsewhere. The department has taken on a whole new level of protection, as well, with terrorism. The patrol functions have stretched thin. All of these factors plus the lack of public support that is most evident on this board have led to a record low morale/lack of team work.

[Turkey Tuesdays]

After they ducked from the initial barrage of gunfire, they should have shot the guns from their hands. Then they should have placed shots in each brothers legs preventing them from escaping. Perfect lol

[SobroGuy]

Baylover....I am not referring specifically to this case, just in general. I believe in this case the cops were well justified...I am more talking about the other recent cases that have been completely unacceptable and recurring problems that were supposed to be "corrected" so many times before. But regarding your specific points: 1-I agree there was no criminal act..they were serving and protecting. 2-I have already discussed what new leadership they need..and it isn't more "us vs them". 3-Please do not make this about lowered standards and salaries as of late. In fact, when the NYPD was a "quality" department with "excellent" recruits and a "great/good" salary, the NYPD was far more corrupt, violent, and incompetent, so let's not rewrite history here as if the problems in the NYPD are something new or out of the ordinary.

[baylovers]

3-Please do not make this about lowered standards and salaries as of late. In fact, when the NYPD was a "quality" department with "excellent" recruits and a "great/good" salary, the NYPD was far more corrupt, violent, and incompetent, so let's not rewrite history here as if the problems in the NYPD are something new or out of the ordinary.

Actually, it is somewhat to the contrary. In the past where recruits may have been moderately more qualified there was an acceptance to the "blue wall of silence" and the the internal ivestigations were less than thorough. Now, we have a department that does not adhere to the silence code as much but newer members of the department who are less qualified. The corruption is not all that deep but appears more widespread because of the amount that surfaces in the media.

Recall back in the 80's & 90's where you would have groups of rogue officers. For instance the 77 Pct midnight shift was out brazenly robbing drug dens, there was a crew called the Morgue boys in the 73 Pct doing similar things. The trumped up Mollen Commission with Michael Dowd and his group. Now it is individual officers who are acting either alone (the guy robbing banks in Pa. or the latest guy robbing drug dealers with his drug dealer friends). These officers came from a criminal background and made it onto the job where as the bad cops from the previous generations fell from grace after they came onto the job.

I will stand by my asseertion that the poor salaries pushed highly qualified supervisors and investigators to retire before their prime. If the city had kept up with salaries like the other metro area agencies there would not have been not been as much turnover, seasoned officers with a desire to do a good job would have been on hand to guide better qualified rookies.

The department is ripe for a positive change but without the public's support there will always be an us vs them mentality on both sides of the coin.

[SobroGuy]

I agree that the dept is ripe for change...2008 and 2009 for that matter are about change...and I hope that it is coming. I believe it all comes down to leadership, and the lack of real leadership, and the subsequent lack of accountability and "us vs them" attitude, is why we see so many officers SEEMINGLY doing whatever it is they want with no remorse, and bragging about it no less. When you don't have parents guarding, protecting, and guiding you, we know what happens to the kids...this is no different.

[ecraw]

Here we go again. The mom made no mention of why her two sons were armed and firing into a crowd of people. Where is the dad? It's insane to think that some people consider this culture.

[winterscorpion]

Originally Posted by DesiArnez6

Good, so in your experience of "Enforcing" that law, I can rightfully assume that you are well aware of what "FACTS" are. Lets check Princeton University's Definitions for "FACT" to get the "Ivy League" perspective on just what "Facts" are: WordNet Search - 3.0 (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=fact - broken link)


I have searched extensively for proof of these "facts"; everywhere. All I see is NYPD testimony that the sons were both armed, which are allegations. If you come across anything that indeed makes this a fact, please post... I am waiting

Number 2 is ALMOST a fact. The NYPD never claimed that they were IN the bar, but OUT side of their bar (which ALSO happens to be in FRONT of their house) Reference: http://www.nypost.com/seven/10272008/news/regionalnews/2_brothers_killed_by_cops_shot_in_the_ba_135562.ht m

and reference: Mom of brothers slain by cops: I want answers

So to clarify, NOBODY claims that the boys were ever in the club, not even the NYPD. So you have established a "fact" that not even the NYPD claims happened. Maybe we should be more careful next time and CHECK our facts And as a "law enforcement" officer, I would hope that on a daily basis you would put as much work into INDEPENDENTLY analyzing an investigation accurately as I (the civillian) have.

So the actual fact? The boys were apparently involved in an altercation in front of their own house, which also happens to be the club in question, without ever entering the premises. Independent witnesses also hold this claim to be true.

Point #3 Based solely on NYPD testimony. Unless, are you claiming that NYPD is always EQUAL to fact? Please provide proof, (Reuters, Associated Press, wherever, give me anything) that these allegations have been proven and are now fact. Again, patiently waiting.

Point #4 FINALLY A FACT Yes, I agree, these boys WERE in Fact shot AND Killed. The Medical has confirmed that there were gun shot wounds AND that these boys were in fact Dead. So Yes, this point is indeed a proven Fact.

Point #5 I suppose if you are arguing on technicality, the woman has NOT literally applied for "Saint hood" (IF someone here Does know the Pope or a Bishop that can attest differently, please post ) If you are alluding to some sort of behavioral problems of the mother, please post a reference. So far I have not found any. Either way, IF you were to establish that point #5 WERE a fact, as a "law enforcement" study, you would be well aware that Point #5 would be irrelevant to the case as it would have no bearing on justification for the shooting.

WOW, If you are THIS confused about what the word "FACT" means, then this only shows further the SERIOUS problems that we face with incompetent and or biased law enforcement. I don't even have my Associates Degree, and yet I know that a fact is ONLY a fact if its been proven. Out of your "5 Facts" , 3 were pending allegations, 1 was an actual PROVEN false statement, and only 1 was indeed a Fact.

The irony is that you conveniently ignored the most important FACT in the investigation, that the medical Examiners have proven that the NYPD has given False Testimony. And yet this FACT doesn't seems to phase you. Perhaps it is too inconvenient. Please I Beg of you, show me where the mother's statements have ever been proven false. Just one lie. One. I haven't found one so far.

Based on that fact can I assume you are willing to admit that The mothers given statement holds greater credibility since it has not yet been proven false. And that the NYPD statement has LESS credibility since it has been proven FALSE. Now with the investigation more facts will be established undoubtedly.

However, in the PRESENT, are you willing to ADMIT that the mother's statement is MORE Credible than the NYPD statement?

If you cannot admit at least this in the PRESENT, than you are being intellectually dishonest and should not be in the position of law enforcement. "Law enforcement" requires integrity.



I am curious what you mean. Not that it has bearing on the case. But still, since you like to throw it out there... Are there any SPECIFICS you care to share about this woman's lifestyle that bother you, actual documented examples would be nice.



Probably true, most kids in poverty, whether "bad" or good kids face such unfortunate circumstances. As a "law enforcement" officer, I suggest you already realize that its YOUR DUTY to serve AND Protect them ANYWAYS regardless of what their future fate may have been.



Very sad. Now why exactly is NONE warranted? VERY Curious. Do you not believe in Karma? Sadly many individuals who lack sympathy for others get none from their fellow man when faced with similar circumstance.

I thought dealing with mental effects were part of their training and evaluation.




Yes that IS what we do in the United States of America, that is paramount in a democratic nation. Power is and MUST always be checked. The moment these checks are eliminated is the moment we become a dictatorial banana republic.



Ah I see. So you sympathize with an officer who is a PROVEN liar by scientific Evidence. Would you also say he was FORCED to give false testimony as well?
But No sympathy for a mother that had nothing to do with this incident, lost her children, and SO FAR has given Testimony that has held up consistently with independent witnesses and evidence. As a law enforcement officer, you DO like "EVIDENCE", right?"

All I can say is .....WOW... So THIS is what society has come to, emotions over logic and reason. Just tragic.

So you are willing to stick up for a cop with proven false testimony over a mother who lost her sons and has NOT been caught lying.

So why DO you hate her so much? IS it because she's black? To you is she just "1 of doze ghetto hoez"?, Or do you just simply enjoy defending "False Testimony"?

If the MOTHER had given False Testimony instead, would you stick up for HER? To protect liars over victims?



IF her son's killed several police officers unjustly, than I should HOPE she would do the right thing. The news has shown quite a few thugs in Brooklyn robbing people, and old ladies, only to be kicked out of the house by their mom, or grandmom, and turned over to police. If I remember correctly, they were also black. I have no reason to believe this black mother wouldn't have also done the right thing as well should her son's have been guilty.

And if I were the "law enforcement" officer, I would try my hardest to get those boys locked away for a LONG time upstate. People who know me on this board know, I Don't have sympathy for thugs or criminals, for ANYONE who is wrong, whether gang banger or Cop, just lock em up and throw away the key.

I guess thats the difference between us. You will the support the cops right OR wrong, true OR False testimony. And I just can't do that. My conscience will not let me. And I need karma on MY side [/quote]


Fact 1

I based everything I wrote on the initial thread contents as a means to justify my comments.....thanks for clearing up the initial story as we know that everything the newspapers print is all factual data. Good Show.

Fact 2

This was removed by the moderator......I just got spanked. Bad Winter!

Fact 3

You made reference to my education or I should say lack of education. Im curious...have you ever been shot at? Ever been in a physical altercation where losing means you die? See thats the cool thing about our country and laws. They give folks like you the right to pass false judgement on those who would do this job. Place as much virtue in education as you would like, when its "Go" time, thats all out the window.

As far as Sainthood Goes.......I'll never be one either, but I didnt raise my children to shoot at cops and innocent people either. Last time I checked, there was only one perfect person in this world, and they crucified him for the sake of us all.

Say what you will in any way you see fit. The fact remains that her sons shot at the police who in turn shot back.

Sorry my reply is not as long as yours. Way to champion the cause of the little guy.....keep 'em coming.

One last thing, I dont hate her or anyone like her. I do however, dislike the spin that some of the posters on this thread are trying to put on the story. I will not give this woman any sympathy....I cant. Her sons were willing to take the lives of others to further thier criminal actions and facilitate thier escape. Where in this situation should I place any sympathy? Oh I forgot its the cops fault for not shooting them in the leg or arm.

Peace to you

Winter

[sugamama0620]

After reading all the post regarding Mrs. Dale Baptist and the death of her two sons,
had she spent more time with her children and not sleeping with married men at her job, then maybe they would be alive today!

How do I know this..... I work there!!!!!!

[sugamama0620]

every one needs to stop pointing the finger at the cops and look at the parents for once.
or parent in this case, which from her reputation dont count for much!

Originally Posted by Jrock247

If I was at a club and two jerkoffs starts popping off shots in the air, I would hope that the cops put them down.

Their mother deserves the press coverage so all her neighbors now how horrible of a failure she was as a parent.