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Old 12-10-2008, 02:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miles View Post
I understand moth's take that the focus is on Puerto Ricans in NYC, etc. However, DAS is correct. The European conqueror came ashore and neither recognized nor honored the existing nation/state borders of each tribe. The Apache, Cheyenne, Sioux, Arapaho, Iroquis, Mohawk, and numerous other tribes did have their borders, perhaps not carved out on paper but certainly enforceable among the various tribes.
Well that's the catch, isn't it? No borders on papers equals no borders. They also did not have all the other attributes that the other three examples possessed- and retain for the most part. So no, the nation-state as we understand it, had not arrived in many places, the pre-Colombian Americas being one example.

And to be perfectly honest, I doubt it would have made much of a difference to the Europeans who arrived. They were going to grab it and grab it they did. Indeed the conquest of the those you mentioned ironically benefited those I mentioned for PR and Quebec would not exist as we know them without the arrival of the Europeans. Neither the PRs or the Quebecois care about the arrival of the Europeans. They care about being [presently] ruled by "other" Europeans, so to speak.

In any case, its not Apache or Lakota who have streamed into New York City and other eastern locations since at least the late 1940s.

Nonetheless, points well taken and very interesting.

 
Old 12-10-2008, 02:14 PM
 
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Great to see this post is sane and reasonable..I expected lots of hate. I have a few basic comments, as this discussion is better left in person...its a tough subject. PR is a nation of conquered people whom never tasted freedom..they were owned and enslaved by their mother country (Spain), and then were handed over to their Step-Father (US). Independence is something that unfortunately was bred out of the culture long ago, and reinforced by the continuing dependence on the US. The mentality of always looking to Mommy (Spain) or Daddy (US) for help with everything has been at the heart of the culture since Day 1....and that has not changed. The Islanders unfortunately would rather stay in Dad's home and never move to the next stage of Adulthood (independence) for fear of losing all the security, free rent, and comfort of home...many people go through this..it is the same for PR. Regarding the PRs that moved to the states...they came with the same aspirations of the American Dream that every other group before them had..work hard, and provide a better life for themselves and their children. Unfortunately, their reliance on Daddy (the US government) to help them with everything, which was part of their culture, ultimately led to their downfall...always has. Until that mentality changes, aka the Island "grows up" and "moves out", as well as those in the US....their plight will never change.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 02:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
Great to see this post is sane and reasonable..I expected lots of hate. I have a few basic comments, as this discussion is better left in person...its a tough subject. PR is a nation of conquered people whom never tasted freedom..they were owned and enslaved by their mother country (Spain), and then were handed over to their Step-Father (US). Independence is something that unfortunately was bred out of the culture long ago, and reinforced by the continuing dependence on the US. The mentality of always looking to Mommy (Spain) or Daddy (US) for help with everything has been at the heart of the culture since Day 1....and that has not changed. The Islanders unfortunately would rather stay in Dad's home and never move to the next stage of Adulthood (independence) for fear of losing all the security, free rent, and comfort of home...many people go through this..it is the same for PR. Regarding the PRs that moved to the states...they came with the same aspirations of the American Dream that every other group before them had..work hard, and provide a better life for themselves and their children. Unfortunately, their reliance on Daddy (the US government) to help them with everything, which was part of their culture, ultimately led to their downfall...always has. Until that mentality changes, aka the Island "grows up" and "moves out", as well as those in the US....their plight will never change.
interesting, good comments.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 02:28 PM
 
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Lot of good comments. Frankly, I don't outright disagree with very many of them.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 02:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
Lot of good comments. Frankly, I don't outright disagree with very many of them.
Well that's why we're all here, moth. If all our opinions were monolithic, we might as well xerox it, circulate and save on the keyboard and the typing. I've got to tell you, this thread is one of the best I've ever been on. Everyone is articulate, impassioned, yet courteous.

Actually, I'm learning also from other brilliant, incisive takes on the subject. Thanks to all aboard and hopefully discussions like this can somehow sharpen perspectives and diffuse out into the community in some fashion, shape, or form, and help the community and all of NYC as we move forward into a new year.

I would have rated this my best thread to be on, but I can't. I've got to leave that accolade for the one where a dozen CD women propositioned me when we had a meetup as a result of a thread organizing that meetup.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 02:43 PM
 
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Me neither MOth...all good points...excellent thread.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 02:50 PM
 
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If there is a plight, it is an individual one. The Nuyoricans who give their group a bad name have no one to blame but themselves. Not Spain, not the United States, and certainly not the City of New York. Plenty of Puerto Ricans have come to the mainland and have been very successful, plenty of Nuyoricans have managed to do the same. If there's anyone stopping a Nuyorican from being successful, it is himself.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 03:06 PM
 
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I would not be as black and white about it...it is not ONLY an issue of "you have yourself to blame" as there are a HOST of factors. That's like saying Black people have only themselves to blame because there are plenty who have done well for themselves...that would be ignoring too many other factors that are relevant and critical to any real discussion about their respective plights.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 03:54 PM
 
Location: San Diego,CA
398 posts, read 1,331,733 times
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Let me state what I have noticed with Latinos on both coasts. That even over here in LA with the Mexican population,It's the same thing with PR's and DR's in NYC. Your going to find some ETREMELY poor people that are systematically stuck in a cycle of not wanting to reach those goals and better there quality of life. If you go to East LA, South Central, Oxnard, Fresno, Stockton, Oakland, Its the same thing as in South BX, East Harlem, Brownsville, New Jersey.Etc. You'll see alot of 1st, 2nd, and sometimes 3rd generation Latinos that just seem to not be able to step out of the poverty cycle. Some people want to step up and make it,And some people dont.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 03:57 PM
 
8,743 posts, read 18,378,760 times
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Yes but that applies to everyone..have you ever been to middle America? There are tens of millions of poor whites who suffer the same problem..entrenched in the cycle of poverty...so that is human nature. The issue is, however, that there is something bigger than "it is your own fault" at play...and that is what we are discussing.....ALL of the factors involved with this particular group...instead of just the simplistics blame game.
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