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Old 12-10-2008, 05:07 PM
 
2,742 posts, read 7,469,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
Great to see this post is sane and reasonable..I expected lots of hate. I have a few basic comments, as this discussion is better left in person...its a tough subject. PR is a nation of conquered people whom never tasted freedom..they were owned and enslaved by their mother country (Spain), and then were handed over to their Step-Father (US). Independence is something that unfortunately was bred out of the culture long ago, and reinforced by the continuing dependence on the US. The mentality of always looking to Mommy (Spain) or Daddy (US) for help with everything has been at the heart of the culture since Day 1....and that has not changed. The Islanders unfortunately would rather stay in Dad's home and never move to the next stage of Adulthood (independence) for fear of losing all the security, free rent, and comfort of home...many people go through this..it is the same for PR. Regarding the PRs that moved to the states...they came with the same aspirations of the American Dream that every other group before them had..work hard, and provide a better life for themselves and their children. Unfortunately, their reliance on Daddy (the US government) to help them with everything, which was part of their culture, ultimately led to their downfall...always has. Until that mentality changes, aka the Island "grows up" and "moves out", as well as those in the US....their plight will never change.
Puerto Rico only has one real option, that is statehood.
Under independence it would be a poor country like Republica Dominicana or Haiti. The only reason P.R. is the way it is, is because of the dollar, everybody know this and that is why the independence movement in PR is only about 4% of the people.

 
Old 12-10-2008, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,049 posts, read 34,453,270 times
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I believe, as SobroGuy pointed out, that there is a definite reluctance for the island of Puerto Rico to move toward independence, specifically because they would lose the connection to Federal funds. But...that's how things go in a republic. Unless the U.S. cuts Puerto Rico loose (there must be a diplomatic term for such an event, but I don't know what it is), which isn't likely, it will be up to the people living there to decide their political status. Certainly, the U.S. wouldn't reject the passage of an independence referendum on the island.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 05:19 PM
 
Location: Bergen County, NJ
9,847 posts, read 25,144,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjma79 View Post
Puerto Rico only has one real option, that is statehood.
Under independence it would be a poor country like Republica Dominicana or Haiti. The only reason P.R. is the way it is, is because of the dollar, everybody know this and that is why the independence movement in PR is only about 4% of the people.
DR is poor. Haiti is extremely poor. PR as an independent country would probably be on the same level more or less as DR. I think independence is worth it though. The feeling of being an Independent country and the pride it brings cannot be underestimated, but realistically I think it might be too late for PR to gain independence, many of the people seem to not want Independence. The people have to want it. They have to want it.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 05:41 PM
 
Location: San Diego,CA
398 posts, read 1,327,487 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
Yes but that applies to everyone..have you ever been to middle America? There are tens of millions of poor whites who suffer the same problem..entrenched in the cycle of poverty...so that is human nature. The issue is, however, that there is something bigger than "it is your own fault" at play...and that is what we are discussing.....ALL of the factors involved with this particular group...instead of just the simplistics blame game.
Yeah I know its bigger than just blaming someone.It's also bigger than just one Latino group. I'm a 3rd generation mixed Latino.I've lived in San Juan(Carolina) P.R, San Jose CA, Elizabeth, NJ, Brooklyn NY. I'm just saying its not just PR's that are stuck in poverty. Many of us are very successful, and strive for greater achievements in life.

Last edited by DjRey; 12-10-2008 at 05:52 PM..
 
Old 12-10-2008, 09:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NooYowkur81 View Post
DR is poor. Haiti is extremely poor. PR as an independent country would probably be on the same level more or less as DR. I think independence is worth it though. The feeling of being an Independent country and the pride it brings cannot be underestimated, but realistically I think it might be too late for PR to gain independence, many of the people seem to not want Independence. The people have to want it. They have to want it.
Yes, but that doesnt mean that you can be a state and not proud of your country(US) and your state.
A perfect example would be Texas, Texans are proud americans and are very proud texans (dont mess with Texas, and everything is bigger in Texas), some state are more then others(dont really know why).
Just like a New Yorker would be a proud new yorker.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Bergen County, NJ
9,847 posts, read 25,144,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjma79 View Post
Yes, but that doesnt mean that you can be a state and not proud of your country(US) and your state.
A perfect example would be Texas, Texans are proud americans and are very proud texans (dont mess with Texas, and everything is bigger in Texas), some state are more then others(dont really know why).
Just like a New Yorker would be a proud new yorker.
Statehood is an option, but its less popular than remaining a commonwealth. Also from what I understand the U.S. is sort of meh about Puerto Rico becoming a state. They are not crazy about it.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 09:27 PM
 
3,225 posts, read 8,536,723 times
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I'm thinking that P.R. has long past the timeline where independence would be a workable, desirable option for most islanders. Regardless of any historical justification for that in the early to mid 1900's, the ties that bind it to the mainland are now permanent and cannot be severed.

The two serious options facing those on the island, in my opinion, are: should we opt for statehood? or continue the status quo?
 
Old 12-10-2008, 11:15 PM
 
2,742 posts, read 7,469,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NooYowkur81 View Post
Statehood is an option, but its less popular than remaining a commonwealth. Also from what I understand the U.S. is sort of meh about Puerto Rico becoming a state. They are not crazy about it.
Yes about 52% of the people voted for ELA(current status) and only like 46-47 voted for statehood that is why the PNP party wants a federal election with only 2 options statehood or independence.
If ELA is an option people will always pick it.
I mean why not, they get all the goodies from the federal gov. But don't pay any federal tax. That is way I always vote for statehood because I think is unfair that PR receives this money from the US without paying for it.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 11:15 PM
 
537 posts, read 453,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekitor View Post
Here is my take.

We actually need to look at their history to know why as a group, Puerto Ricans haven't been that successful in the mainland USA.

Back in the 40's and 60's, the island of Puerto Rico, was really poor and many out of jobs. So once there were so many flights available from the island to the mainland, the migration was in full speed. Back in the island promises of factories jobs in USA cities, also help in attracting them to the mainland. That is why you have a lot of Puerto Rican presence in Northeast cities and in cities as far as Chicago. They did come to work, not to be in some government welfare. They could have done so in the Island. But unfortunately, the factories pay wasn't that very good but for them it was way better to have a job, than been jobless back at home. Also the living conditions at that time, were bad of course in cities, but not as bad as they were in Puerto Rico (back then). So they accepted it. But then, the factories started to either moved away from cities or just close down. With some of the last ones disappearing by the 70's. Not only at that time, that cities were getting economically stress out, but many people (whites) moved away to the suburbs and took many more jobs and businesses with them. All of this did not look good for the Puerto Ricans in the cities. Or for the Blacks, who by then, were both at the bottom of the social economic ladder.

Plenty of discrimination. Many Puerto Ricans were discriminated because the did not speak English and because they were not white enough. Discrimination was out more in the open, unlike what you see today. For example, I read that there were some awful signs on some Italian businesses in East Harlem, were it will read, "no dogs and Puerto Ricans allowed'. Of course there was no need to add blacks to the signs, since no black will be welcome anyway, but the Italians wanted to send the clear message that Puerto Ricans were more in common with dogs or animals than they were like them. I guess European or white. They did not have so much of an issue with the Irish or other European immigrant. Also it was normal for the cops to ignore their problems. Most cops at that time were of Irish descent. So why care. In many neighborhoods they were not really welcome. In either Italian, Irish or any white neighborhoods. Although Jewish neighborhoods tended to be more welcoming. But a lot of them left the city along with other whites as well. So the Puerto Ricans were push aside close to or where the African Americans were already living. In distress neighborhoods. So they settle in, among the African Americans. I am sure tensions did form within the groups. But in the end they learn to accept each other in some ways. A lot of the Puerto Ricans did go back to the Island than endure living in such conditions, but many did stay even though they were economically stress out. And yes, by then, many decided to look for government help, such as welfare and public housing. NYC as well as many other cities became economically worse. Crime and drugs where everywhere and affected many of these neighborhoods.

The Puerto Ricans who were born in the mainland had more issues and things in common with African Americans than they did with Puerto Ricans in the island or with American Whites. They grew up with African Americans and went to the same schools with them. For many they were still a minority even in these neighborhoods, so they did had to go along with what African Americans already were used to. Like what they like in music or in the movies, clothes etc. By the 70's these neighborhoods were really economically bad. But something interesting did happen and especially in NYC. Puerto Ricans did get involved in creating a new type of music that was to become Hip Hop. While many others, that still embrace their Latin music went on to create the craze Salsa. It seems like an excitement time for many, to be recognize around the world for their music creations. Even while their neighborhoods were still deteriorating and full of crime, drug problems and arson.

Now the next wave of Latin immigrants or from around the world fare well. Most started to come in the 80's and still today. By the 70's and 80's moving to White areas was more possible. A lot of Whites did not care about staying in cities anymore. Many were trying to get out as fast as they could. Too much crime and drugs, too many new immigrants, etc. By then, the city also had discourage those nasty signs and unwelcoming tactics and even pass some job discrimination laws, etc. Also the newer immigrants did not wanted to go to these distress neighborhoods anyway, were the African Americans and Puerto Ricans lived, so they chose to go to the White neighborhoods. Queens was top choice. That is why Queens is so diverse. Also many of these immigrants tend to be educated, or had some money. In many countries in order to come to the USA, you must have proved that you are well off and only come to the USA as a guest or tourist. But many over stay their visas.

So many Puerto Ricans individually did get out of these poor situations, but as a group it was sort of too late.

Thank you. I believe you've given an accurate assessment of the situation, particularly the historical background of the Puerto Rican identification with African Americans in society.

As has been stated, all the particulars involved make this topic a tinge complicated.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 11:35 PM
 
1,729 posts, read 4,979,047 times
Reputation: 850
Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
Yes but that applies to everyone..have you ever been to middle America? There are tens of millions of poor whites who suffer the same problem..entrenched in the cycle of poverty...so that is human nature. The issue is, however, that there is something bigger than "it is your own fault" at play...and that is what we are discussing.....ALL of the factors involved with this particular group...instead of just the simplistics blame game.
Yes, there is something bigger than .......at play: And I am only referring here SOME of the first, and second generation Puerto Ricans in New York:

A lack of role models, lack of strong political power, too many broken homes, with no father-figures. Many single mothers either on welfare, or making very- low wages, with a lack of parenting skills, and too tired to teach Johnny how to do his homework, which contributes to his lack of motivation, goals, discipline, and thus, a lower rate of academic achievement.

Stuck in ghetto areas full of gangs, drugs, and with no way out, leads them to identify and assimmilate with other groups that have nothing to offer them, but trouble.

Although Puerto Ricans are not a race, but an ethnicity, throughout the years, there have been such racism toward this group, that I came to New York in 1943, and this is 2008, and there is still lots of racism toward them.

And there will always be, unless the MANY ONES that have made it, vote for the right people, and get into politics, where the power lies.

They have not yet learned how to stick together, and this is a problem.
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