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I guess I was more interested in areas like Astoria, Park Slope, Upper East Side, Upper West Side, the village, etc. Not because I don't want to know what goes on in other areas - I simply haven't ever been to Bensonhurts or Dyker Heights - so I would never comment on them. I guess I'm talking more about mainstream areas in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn, - areas that I'm familiar with, that I've lived in. In these areas, it doesn't seem like there are race relation problems. I have friends of all races in these areas - and we've never talked about race issues. When people ask for advice on these areas - I always tell them that they are safe and are filled with all different races. Do other people have a different opinion? And I'm not talking about snobbiness - that is a different issue that changes from block to block.
I guess my point was not clear. I agree that snobbiness is not the same thing. I think I questioned that, if you will scroll back up, Dewdrop. What I am saying is that your perspective, while perhaps valid for you, is somewhat idealistic and limited. Yes, even though the areas you've named are great, some people have and still do experience racial problems. It could be as subtle as not being served properly at a restaurant or cafe, or being turned down by a property manager. Of course, these situations can be explained away by means other than those having to do with race. Modern or covert racism will be with us all for a very long time, mainly because they are so insidious that they are hard to prove. You've already made up your mind, Dewdrop, it seems. So I won't write on the subject anymore. Denial can be bliss. We've all been there. You sound a lot like I used to sound when describing Madison, Wisconsin. Having the blinders taken off my eyes sucked at first, hurt even, but now I am able to be a part of the solution, mainly by being myself with all people, being kind, working for equality, being open about my own experiences, and listening to people when they tell me about the discrimination they have suffered in a city that purports to be so welcoming and liberal. Depending on each person's mindset or level of cultural competence or awareness, two different people could have experienced the exact same incident at the exact same time, and still walk away with different interpretations. Which is fine. But do you really want to be the kind of person who is so happy about their own situation that they choose not to care about what happens to other people?
I would love for other folks to chime in here, though. But I do think that arguments to either extreme are at best questionable, at worst exaggerated. I opt for recognizing that fuzzy little grey area. Yes, even in the sacred sanctuaries of Park Slope or the Upper East Side. lol.
To each his or her own, I always say. Let's be adult and agree to disagree, ok?
Nala8 - I most certainly have not made up my mind - which was why I started this thread. The whole reason that I started this thread is because I started to doubt myself. I've told many people that Astoria and the Upper East Side (close to the river, not close to the park) are welcoming to all - I wanted to make sure that this was what other people had experienced as well. I don't want to tell people that they will be safe in a certain area if that is not the case. I try to be helpful.
You have actually really upset me. My whole point to starting this thread was to hear what other people's experiences have been - mostly in these areas - so that I know if I am indeed ignorant or not. I understand that racism still exists - I know prejudices will always exist - people always need someone to hate. I wasn't asking if there were racist people in the world - merely if these areas were in fact safe for all people of all races and creeds. Safe - not perfect. I have indeed encountered prejudice from many people myself. It's horrible. I'm not in denial, I'm not blissful. However, most of the prejudice that I have experienced has not been in New York. Most people in New York seem to be too busy to care about such things. Once again, that has only been MY experience - I can only comment on my experiences.
I know the world is not perfect. My best friend is Arab. Try being Arab in times like these.
And I am half Japanese, half Eastern European. Is everybody happy now!!!!
I think I am giving up on this thread. It seems to have been useless.
I think you are trying to get simple answers to a very complex question. You need to be more specific in your language when wording your question. I would certainly consider Bensonhurst to be "mainstream" NYC so I don't know really what you mean unless you only consider the "real" NYC to be Manhattan and the areas in the surrounding boroughs that are very close to Manhattan. Perhaps, you mean the current trendy areas that interest young people? Most likely, an African-American will not have trouble buying a cup of coffee on the upper eastside, but I have heard stories of affluent African-Americans wanting to buy an expensive co-op unit in the upper eastside and encountering racism.
There is also prejudice against class as well as race when trying to fit into certain areas.
Just one more clarification, Judiasm is a religion, not a race or ethnicity. There are Japanese Jews and certainly many Jewish Ethiopians. Not all Jewish people are caucasian and naturally would be subject to potential racism based on the color of their skin, not just religion. There is/was a Japanese lady who was a convert to Judiasm and she used to own/manage a very popular kosher Japanese restaurant in Manhattan.
Okay - let me just put this out there for hopefully the last time - I say that I am half Jewish because my father was raised Jewish and it was important to him. He had a hard time being one of only a handful of Jewish children at his school. Because of that - being Jewish was a strong part of his identity. I don't care what "Judaism" is - religion, race, ethnicity - to many people it is part of their cultural identity.
I'm not necessarily looking for simple answers - but I do understand that I wasn't specific. I've lived here for 12 years - but have been rather limited in my areas of comings and goings. I've never felt "limited" per se - but I guess I have been. I lived in Astoria and the Upper East Side (not the expensive part), and worked in Manhattan. Most of my friends live in Astoria, Manhattan, or the Park Slope, Caroll Gardens, etc. areas of Brooklyn. I guess that can be looked upon as sheltered - but if I have no reason to go to other places - why would I? When people ask for advice on this forum about where to live - if they are looking for something in the $800-$1500 price range - I usually suggest Astoria or the Upper East Side. I am familiar with these areas and feel like they are safe, fun areas to live in. However, I don't want to keep suggesting these areas and telling people that they are safe if that is not the case.
I am saddened to hear of people not being able to buy a co-op in the building of their choice because of their race. When my parents were buying a house in the 70's - they got turned down at many different places because they were a mixed couple. I'm sad to hear that things like this continue to happen. But like I said, people always need someone to hate. Whether it's based on the color of your skin, your religion, sexual preference, etc. - it's all horrible. Penn and Teller suggested that someday - when the races are all mixed - people will discriminate against things like hair color!
Oh - and I don't consider the places that I've lived to be the "real" NYC - maybe just the more accessible parts to people visiting or moving here that want to be within a certain distance to midtown.
I don't think that there is ever going to be an area that is completely free of any racism or prejudice - it's just not possible. There is always going to be a waitress or a guy walking down the street or a teacher, etc - that will discriminate for some reason or another. What I'm trying to ask about is are these areas safe for a person of any race to walk home from the subway at 2am. In these areas, can a person of any race walk down the street and not get harassed or be afraid. In these areas, will people be able to make friends with their neighbors? In my old building on the Upper East Side, I was friends with a bunch of my neighbors - they were from all different walks of life, were all different races, all different sexual preferences, etc. I loved that! I guess because that was my experience - I felt like it was a great neighborhood for anyone to live in! I've told many people on this forum what a great area it is and I just want to make sure that I'm giving decent advice. And for further clarification - I lived in the upper 70's right near the river. I also loved living in Astoria - although I wasn't friends with as many of my neighbors there. I just always felt like these were safe, fairly open-minded areas. I would feel horrible if I found out that people felt unsafe in these areas.
Dear Dewdrop, I'm a little off topic here, but let me clarify. I am not trying to upset you. No one has that kind of power over you. You have raised a difficult question, not one with easy answers, and surely not one with answers any of us would like to hear. These are not easy times for any of us. I wish there were a racism-free place in NYC. I would be too happy to live there. We all just have to do our part to make the best of the world in which we live. Anyway, just know that it was never my intention to hurt you. Peace to you, Dewdrop. I hope you find your answers.
Just one more clarification, Judiasm is a religion, not a race or ethnicity.
At the risk of opening up a humungous can of worms, Jews are both a people and a religion.
Within the Jewish people, there are many different ethnic groups, such as Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrachi, Ethiopian, B'nai Israel, etc., etc., etc.
Within the Jewish religion, there are those who were born of a Jewish mother and others who converted, and those who have left the faith, but still remain a Jew (the preceding Cardinal Archbishop of Paris (Lustiger ???), according to his own words, was a Catholic Jew or is that a Jewish Catholic, I forget).
Nala8 - Thank you very much. I am with you - I wish there were racism free places, also. I wish there were places to live that were completely prejudice free. Even in my house, we are not all created equal - the dog comes first!
I just want to be as informed as possible so that I don't give bad advice to people looking to move here. For the moment, I think I will refrain from giving any advice on places to live.
Dewdrop, I think you are fine giving out advice about these areas that you have familiarity with as long as the people who receive your advice realize that you are speaking in generalities. Naturally, anyone's advice is going to be subjective based on our own experiences to some degree. I have to commend you for your desire to give accurate advice and for your concern that you are not misleading anyone. In general, the places that you mentioned are hetergeneous places, but not necessarily an equal mix of backgrounds. Of course, someone could move to an apartment and just their luck, find out that their neighbor is a racist pig, but to get an idea of the ethnic make-up of an area and if you would fit in, all one has to do is look up the demographic statistics. I don't think there are any accurate statistics recorded that could measure level of tolerance for nationalities that are not one's own.
I think I heard someone say once, the further away you get from a subway station the more racist it tends to get. It seems to be true...
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