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The problem with pensions is that they are a system built for a generation that died in their 60s. So, when the 8% system was set up people were expected to live, on average, no more than 10 years after they retired at 65. The problem now is that those tables have been stretched immensely. To the point where a great deal of pensioners will be receiving pensions much longer then they were actually in the job.
The next wave of problems will be that the pensions won't be enough for these people 20 years from now. Why? Because anything over 18k doesn't get increased for inflation by NYS pension standards. So, a pension for a 55 year old that pays 60k today will probably only be worth 25k in today's buying power when they are 75. Think of what it will be worth with the average person living to 86.
What will solve this problem is some good old fashioned inflation.
The problem with pensions is that they are a system built for a generation that died in their 60s. So, when the 8% system was set up people were expected to live, on average, no more than 10 years after they retired at 65. The problem now is that those tables have been stretched immensely. To the point where a great deal of pensioners will be receiving pensions much longer then they were actually in the job.
The next wave of problems will be that the pensions won't be enough for these people 20 years from now. Why? Because anything over 18k doesn't get increased for inflation by NYS pension standards. So, a pension for a 55 year old that pays 60k today will probably only be worth 25k in today's buying power when they are 75. Think of what it will be worth with the average person living to 86.
What will solve this problem is some good old fashioned inflation.
My bet is if inflation does rear its ugly head, that they would somehow alter the laws to allow the pensions to adjust above the 18k. Grease a few palms and promise the votes and it's done :/. But we are all exposed to inflation, not just the public sector.
I have thought about inflation taking care of the issue, but I don't see this happening because taxpayers are providing free health care for life to pensioners..and those costs will sky-rocket with inflation.
The problem with pensions is that they are given to public sector employees only which skews their total compensation. Why should workers in government receive a benefit that private sector workers do not? Public employees pay should be comparable to private pay, and thanks to pensions, job security and the high compensation of many long island public servants, government jobs are significantly more attractive than private sector jobs. Save tax payer money and end pensions.
Yes, Americans love to point to Greece and Spain and use it as justification for praising the American way of doing business and handling labor.
Except the American way of doing business and handling labor is what got us all into this mess, not just on Long Island, but throughout the entire nation.
If you want to change the laws in this country, take a good, hard look at Germany as a prototype. Progressive benefits, health care, plenty of time off, work-life balance, and a healthy respect for worker's rights--and economic recovery, to boot. In fact, Germany is having a labor shortage right now. Goes to show what happens when the people demand, and get, a government that runs the show with everyone's best interests in mind, not just big business and the already wealthy.
[URL="http://www.fedee.com/natlaw.html#germany"]National labour laws[/URL]
[URL="http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-12-09/germans-get-jobs-for-life-as-export-boom-shrinks-worker-pool.html"]Germans Get Jobs for Life as Export Boom Shrinks Worker Pool - BusinessWeek[/URL]
[URL="http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9JMFVRO2.htm"]Germany hangs out 'Help Wanted' sign - BusinessWeek[/URL]
[URL="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-30/unemployment-in-germany-declined-to-lowest-level-in-18-years-in-november.html"]German Unemployment Falls to 18-Year Low as Economy Leads Europe Recovery - Bloomberg[/URL]
Even the folks at the American Enterprise Institute know the Germans are on to something, and they're quite the conservative think-tank (where I interned back in the folly of my conservative, Republican youth ).
[URL="http://www.npr.org/2010/12/05/131813014/living-without-work-the-long-term-unemployed"]Living Without Work: The Long-Term Unemployed : NPR[/URL]
Wouldn't it be nice if New York led the way in showing the rest of the country how such a thing could work?
If you want to change the laws in this country, take a good, hard look at Germany as a prototype. Progressive benefits, health care, plenty of time off, work-life balance, and a healthy respect for worker's rights--and economic recovery, to boot. In fact, Germany is having a labor shortage right now. Goes to show what happens when the people demand, and get, a government that runs the show with everyone's best interests in mind, not just big business and the already wealthy.
Wouldn't it be nice if New York led the way in showing the rest of the country how such a thing could work?
Trying to stay as on-topic as possible, but this can show the difference as to why pensions don't work in most of the US and especially NY. (well they can work, but they were simply designed too much like a pyramid scheme).
It doesn't really make sense to compare Germany to NY. Germany is probably the highest quality manufacturer in the world; with China being the most efficient. You will notice both Germany & China have few problems running socialist systems.
However, the difference being China & Germany can afford to offer these social programs where the US (especially NY) cannot afford it. Some politicians over-promised to the unions to the point where the public sector grew faster than the taxpayer, and now the taxpayer is simply out of money. This is similar to what happened in Detroit. Huge entitlement programs. UAW was aiding & abetting in GM's destruction by keeping unrealistic $73/hr wages in line, with ZERO flexibility on change. Life was good for everyone until the US auto sector was no longer competitive. Then the sh*t hit the fan, mass exodus and you're left with Detroit in ruins. The Gov't better bail us out when we go down Gm-style, because I am seeing some articles popping up that are disturbing./ pointing to the contrary.
Germany runs huge surpluses because their export business is phenomenal.. they do have a huge manufacturing base that is tightly run and passed down each generation within families. They work together..whereas the system we have in NY is turning everyone against each other. Because the balance is out of equilibrium here. Generally, I think it would be great if we could pull off what Germany has going for herself. Unfortunately, taxpayers in NY are broke. We again, made #1 on the list of state population loss in 2010.
The other problems is that the thinking of companies and unions was based on a WWII manufacturing mentality.
During and after WWII, for the first time we were the world's big dog for manufacturing as everyone else had been bombed back to square one. Of course over time the manufacturing bases of Europe and Japan came back and were growing, but we didn't think much about that and how to compete. Now with other economies offering lower costs to make widgets we've lost a lot of the cash needed to pay for pensions, wars, social give aways and all the other things the American public and government have gotten used to. But we did get a lot of happy talk about a "service based economy", and I guess that's something.
American corporations though? They adjusted and have done what they needed to do to try and make a profit and/or survive. Moved, merged, hired, let go, grew, shrank, etc. With a bit of lying and cheating thrown in too.
Trying to stay as on-topic as possible, but this can show the difference as to why pensions don't work in most of the US and especially NY. (well they can work, but they were simply designed too much like a pyramid scheme).
It doesn't really make sense to compare Germany to NY. Germany is probably the highest quality manufacturer in the world; with China being the most efficient. You will notice both Germany & China have few problems running socialist systems.
However, the difference being China & Germany can afford to offer these social programs where the US (especially NY) cannot afford it. Some politicians over-promised to the unions to the point where the public sector grew faster than the taxpayer, and now the taxpayer is simply out of money. This is similar to what happened in Detroit. Huge entitlement programs. UAW was aiding & abetting in GM's destruction by keeping unrealistic $73/hr wages in line, with ZERO flexibility on change. Life was good for everyone until the US auto sector was no longer competitive. Then the sh*t hit the fan, mass exodus and you're left with Detroit in ruins. The Gov't better bail us out when we go down Gm-style, because I am seeing some articles popping up that are disturbing./ pointing to the contrary.
Germany runs huge surpluses because their export business is phenomenal.. they do have a huge manufacturing base that is tightly run and passed down each generation within families. They work together..whereas the system we have in NY is turning everyone against each other. Because the balance is out of equilibrium here. Generally, I think it would be great if we could pull off what Germany has going for herself. Unfortunately, taxpayers in NY are broke. We again, made #1 on the list of state population loss in 2010.
Totally agree. In order to have a high quality manufacturing base you need a highly educated workforce, something the US is sorely lacking. Hate to break it to the mass at large, but for all the dollars we are spending in education on the Island and elsewhere, the product is laughable at best. When was the last time you bought an American manufactured car or anything that required a significant cash outlay owned by an American company?
You need to be competitive, there is no reason to be given outlandish wages/benefits when the results produced are of sub-quality. All the studies about great educational systems, best policing, best garbage pick-up means very little when society as a collective whole fails to benefit.
I grew up in a home where dad was a policeman. Mom stood home and dad worked 2/3 jobs, was never home, worked nights, holidays, birthdays, many special times my dad missed out on. Fast forward what do me and my brother do. We become policeman. We put our families thru the same ordeal. My younger brother,,,,he's smarter than us he goes to verizon. One thing I can clearly remember is my parents never compliaining or begrudging what the white collar types made. Or how much my dad did not make. Same goes for my brother and me. Never wasted my time grumbling over what the other guy has. I was satisfied with my choice..........It all boils down to envy. All of the critics of people getting pensions should really if they can change professions. Maybe you too can land one of those so called cushy pensions.
I grew up in a home where dad was a policeman. Mom stood home and dad worked 2/3 jobs, was never home, worked nights, holidays, birthdays, many special times my dad missed out on. Fast forward what do me and my brother do. We become policeman. We put our families thru the same ordeal. My younger brother,,,,he's smarter than us he goes to verizon. One thing I can clearly remember is my parents never compliaining or begrudging what the white collar types made. Or how much my dad did not make. Same goes for my brother and me. Never wasted my time grumbling over what the other guy has. I was satisfied with my choice..........It all boils down to envy. All of the critics of people getting pensions should really if they can change professions. Maybe you too can land one of those so called cushy pensions.
I think you are absolutely right. In fact, we are seeing throngs of young people trying to become Long Island teachers for that exact reason, because their exists a disparity of income/benefits to work. The economics of a labor force will tell you where the disparity is. If we get 4,000 applications for each police position open then you have a disparity in supply vs demand. Within the private business world, that company would lower their salary offers given all other variables being constant.
I think there exists a lot of envy out there. I don't begrudge anyone for taking a job that offers them a better deal, just like I don't hold it to people who use the system to provide themselves with welfare, medicaid, and other government subsidies. I blame the people who built the system. The years of government cow towing to lobbyist groups that were exceptionally good at getting what they want. What's that great saying? Don't hate the player. Hate the game. However, it's to the point where it is really hurting our community.
Totally agree. In order to have a high quality manufacturing base you need a highly educated workforce, something the US is sorely lacking. Hate to break it to the mass at large, but for all the dollars we are spending in education on the Island and elsewhere, the product is laughable at best. When was the last time you bought an American manufactured car or anything that required a significant cash outlay owned by an American company?
You need to be competitive, there is no reason to be given outlandish wages/benefits when the results produced are of sub-quality. All the studies about great educational systems, best policing, best garbage pick-up means very little when society as a collective whole fails to benefit.
You've [URL="//www.city-data.com/forum/16970195-post17.html"]got me there[/URL], friend. I tend to go with Japanese for that.
But when it comes to the private sector, [URL="//www.city-data.com/forum/16970358-post18.html"]I don't much like[/URL] the way American companies treat their workers these days, either. It has gotten to the point where I dig and dig some more before I agree to work with anyone in the private sector. Call me an idealist, but I don't want to work with a company I can't respect, even if they're a client and I'm not a direct employee. My angle is that I'd like to see everyone get the same kind of benefits civil servants get. The American workforce would be happier for it--and perhaps produce a better product. Education aside, if you treat employees like dirt, they're not going to be motivated to give their best or care about what they produce. That goes for civil servants, as well. If I had kids, I wouldn't want a demotivated teacher teaching them, just like I wouldn't want a disgruntled cop responding to my crisis.
To go into why education in this country produces what it does would be way off topic, and I avoid the Politics forum on here.
Last edited by Yzette; 12-12-2010 at 02:35 PM..
Reason: Trying to stay on topic. :-)
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