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That split is ver betum what I have said multiple times. Split it east/west. I live in Rochester and know that WNY is very different from Albany. My ideal theoretical split has always been Binghamton to Watertown westward splitting off. Excluding Albany and the adirondacks which would stick with LI/NYC
Erie County is paying 2.6% of property value (on average) toward taxes on residential properties. I can't find the data for commercial properties, but it's likely higher. You've got a situation where the tax base has evaporated and some of the largest employers in the region are the State of New York, the US Government, the City of Buffalo and the county itself.
Let's just assume for a minute that your conspiracy theory, downstate/Albany plot to legislate policy that screws upstate wasn't true at all. I'm not even saying Albany doesn't bend over backwards for NYC - it does, but let's just say that doesn't happen whatsoever for the time being.
From the corporate perspective (ie: anything that will bring jobs in great numbers) Buffalo/Erie County is a major bust because it will cost roughly 3x more in property taxes each year than other similar cities. Rust belt tax rates are through the roof, 2.6% might not seem like that much more than 0.8% on paper, but when we're talking millions of dollars and multiple decade commitment, it certainly adds up. So before Albany ever has a chance to poison the rest of the state with pro-downstate policy, Buffalo - and all of New York's old industrial centers - have absolutely no shot of attracting big ticket employers until they come up with some way to trim the fat at the local level.
Show me one thing that says bringing a major corporation to Buffalo, NY would cost more because of some specific "NYC bias" than the city's tab itself would. It's a nice idea for people upstate to believe that cutting the state in half would magically fix everything, but it's a fairy tale.
I don't meant to diss on Buffalo either, but it's the poster child of upstate/WNY failure. It's a great city, I've been there about 15 times and enjoyed the hell out of it, but it's got major problems and a shaky future ahead of it.
I didn't mean to come off as an ass. While your statements may make sense to you living on Long Island they make no sense when applied to Western NY.
Take for example Erie County paying 2.6% of property value in taxes. While that may seem like a lot, Erie County has some of the lowest property taxes in the state! You pay for a cheap house but pay more in taxes, but things average out. With that being said most home owners in Western NY get hammered by school and municipal taxes, like you said. This is where the state influence comes in.
Guess how many school districts there are in Erie County? 30 30 entire school districts. Do you really think we need 30 school districts in Erie County? Good luck getting that by the Teachers Union whom is entangled tightly in web of state laws which make them untouchable. School voucher system? Union says :nope. Take away face lifts for teachers? Teachers unions sayssssssss: nope. Eliminate an entire school district and the union sayssss nope. I don't know how many other chumps out there that had their pension ravaged by this stupid recession but if you are a teacher in the state of NY don't worry the tax payers foot the bill for you. Thanks Taylors Law you're amazing.
Not only does this apply to every public union but these blasted back door unaccountable authories. Guess where they came from and who set them up and whom they are protected by? Good luck fighting any sort of increase from a water authority, thruway authority, etc. It can't be done.
These are just some examples. Buffalo has problems, some self inflicted yes. But for people to sit here and say the State of New York had nothing to do with Buffalos decline is a total joke. It has to be. Which is why I laughed and people claiming upstates problem are entirly caused by themselves.
The only bright spot latetly has been Patterson taking something of a consideration to a few laws that have already been passed but went back to be tweek them to actualy benifit upstate communities like brownfield remidation and building renovation/restoration tax credits.
There is no arm wrestle between NYC and Western New York. That was 50-60 years ago, much of where this idea for this thread originated, because upstate didn't feel it needed to bail out NYC. because back then the state ignored NYC and its problems. NYC doesn't even register with people here in Buffalo. If you ask someone to go to a major city they will go to Toronto for a weekend trip not NYC.
You've made some very good points about the inflated cost of local government, but left out a key factor. Local government is so expensive in the state because the political power public employee unions have over state officials and the laws that are in the books (Taylor Law), plus the crushing cost of state Medicare mandates. So, while the money does indeed never leave the county, the cost of government that causes those taxes to be so high in the first place is dictated by our inept and utterly corrupt state legislature's subservience to special interests. This legislature has a structure that puts all decision-making making power in two people. Currently, they are one man from from Manhattan and one from Queens.
In our imaginary independent Upstate, adopting the status quo would of course be a disaster due to the high cost of government, made worse by the lack of a Downstate subsidy. The key would be to start fresh with new laws that allow for a lower cost of government.
What's funny is that if the state were split, I guarantee one of the biggest reform issues downstate would also be how to loosen the public sector union stranglehold on local government. It's normal for Suffolk County cops to take home six figures....that is total lunacy! Nobody wants nonsense like the Taylor Law, even the unions it empowers cry poverty over "not being able to strike". I'm not really intimately familiar with the political climate in Buffalo, but considering the massive percentage of public sector employees in the city and county, who are no doubt benefiting from wages that have increased well ahead of inflation and benefits that are totally out of scale with those typical of private jobs, I don't get how it would be any easier to wrangle power away from these organizations as two states as it would be to do it right now. Sure, the old laws could go right out the window both places....but there will still be a need for these government services and employees. You'd have to fire every single person and start from scratch, and somehow I know that's not the way it would happen. The unions would run a smear campaign, scare the crap out of everyone, take advantage of the disinterested, rally their family and friends and when it got put to a vote, you would end up with a similar or even worse collective bargaining agreement.
The people calling the shots in Albany may reside downstate, but trust me this is just as big of an issue down here.....no one anywhere in the state wants it, at least no one who isn't getting a paycheck from it.
I'm also not sure I follow what you mean by Medicare mandates? I've always been under the impression that Medicare is entirely a federal program, funded through payroll....(you get a certain % taken out and your employer matches it) and I don't think NYS has any say in the matter...
If you're talking Medicaid, yes - this is funded partly through property tax collected at the county level.....and in some cases, Medicaid is one of the biggest costs to the county administration (not all cases), however the county admin portion of your taxes make up an extremely small portion of the bill. For instance, in Nassau County - I'm only using this as an example cuz I know it off the top of my head - on a home that pays around $9,000 in property taxes, the "County Administration" portion (which Medicaid's local subsidy is entirely funded through) amounts to something like $150-$250. The state and federal contributions make up the bulk of it.
I'm not saying it's a good thing or logical at all how NYS has so much fraud and pays such a retarded amount towards Medicaid, just saying it actually isn't costing your average taxpayer all that much. Again, were the state aid given to local WNY governments to suddenly disappear, as well as the public sector jobs created by NYC/downstate, the Medicaid costs would be a drop in the bucket compared to that gaping hole in their budgets....no matter what kind of slender new legislation was enacted.
There is no reason why statewide legislature can't be more progressive, we just have crap politicians. People are fed up with the same exact things downstate as they are in WNY, I'm not sure if everyone realizes that....
There is no reason why statewide legislature can't be more progressive, we just have crap politicians. People are fed up with the same exact things downstate as they are in WNY, I'm not sure if everyone realizes that....
Finally someone is making some sense. ^This so much.
The problem is exactly that; the politicians are not proactive at all. And if they were they'd have nowhere to be proactive due to the "three men in a room" situation. What we need is a constitutional convention. And also, we need to term limit them and reduce compensation by a lot. There's no reason they should make $75,000 per year plus per diem for working 3 days 6 months a year and doing practically nothing.
I didn't mean to come off as an ass. While your statements may make sense to you living on Long Island they make no sense when applied to Western NY.
Ahh but if only you knew how similar the situations are, though they might seem radically different from afar.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffaloLight
Guess how many school districts there are in Erie County? 30 30 entire school districts. Do you really think we need 30 school districts in Erie County? Good luck getting that by the Teachers Union whom is entangled tightly in web of state laws which make them untouchable. School voucher system? Union says :nope. Take away face lifts for teachers? Teachers unions sayssssssss: nope. Eliminate an entire school district and the union sayssss nope. I don't know how many other chumps out there that had their pension ravaged by this stupid recession but if you are a teacher in the state of NY don't worry the tax payers foot the bill for you. Thanks Taylors Law you're amazing.
Guess how many school districts there are in Nassau County (which has about 400,000 more people living in it than Erie County)?? 59 59 entire school districts.....and people are just as PO'ed about the same stuff you mention down here. The school districts alone make up like 70% of the property tax bill, in both places no doubt. These unions, and their refusal to budge an inch, are not beneficial to downstate in any way whatsoever. They're not as much of a problem for NYC, but that's because NYC just has one big school district. There is one administrative layer instead of 30 or 59 or however many districts Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland, etc. all have.....and property taxes, percentage-wise, believe it or not are NOTHING in NYC for this very reason. Municipal services are consolidated and cost effective, they have incredible purchasing power.
Do you really think this doesn't hurt Long Island? It's a huge issue here! The Taylor Law is one of the worst things that ever happened to NYS, but it happened across the board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffaloLight
Take for example Erie County paying 2.6% of property value in taxes. While that may seem like a lot, Erie County has some of the lowest property taxes in the state! You pay for a cheap house but pay more in taxes, but things average out. With that being said most home owners in Western NY get hammered by school and municipal taxes, like you said. This is where the state influence comes in.
You're thinking in cost-of-living terms....look at it from the perspective of a potential employer moving to the area. Yes, the cost of land is cheap....that's why property taxes, despite being an extremely high % of value, are very low....but when you're competing against the rest of the country for jobs, that doesn't matter at all. Tons of places down south you've got land that is just as cheap (if not cheaper) and the taxes are half, one-third, one-quarter even the percentage of value! Why buy property in Buffalo for the same price as you can in East Bumbleufck, VA if you can save several million dollars each year in property taxes down south?
Now if we consolidate school districts, how would we go about it? Would we go with a total county school district? Would people in say Williamsville really want to share the same school district with people that live in Buffalo's East Side or Garden City sharing the same district with those from Hempstead? Could it stay with the same district lines, but under a county moniker and 1 superintendant or would it be one of open enrollment? If it is open enrollment, would it be like it is in Minnesota and Wisconsin where the tax dollars follow the student, the student will have to find a way to get to the school and the school they want to go to will have to have room for the student? So, in turn, it makes schools more competitive in keeping students.
What about county sectional/regional districts? Meaning, you create a district by the location of where it sits within that county(say East Erie, Southtowns, North Erie, etc.....).
Maybe consolidate the districts of one town could be an option. For instance, instead of Cheektowaga having 4 school districts, what about consolidating them? If you do that though, you would have to cut some jobs in order to see a serious reduction of costs, or otherwise you would just consolidate with the same people and systems in place just under one figure in charge. Other towns similar to Cheektowaga that could posssibly to do this area: Amherst, Colonie, Rotterdam and Onondaga.
What about law enforcement instead? I know of places where you can have coverage by a village, town and county agency. So, why not consolidate law enforcement agencies? I know of some towns doing that like the town of Clay, which abolished it's town police force and their former officers are now a part of the Onondaga County Sheriff's department. Clay happens to be one of the safest towns in the US, by the way.
Now if we consolidate school districts, how would we go about it? Would we go with a total county school district? Would people in say Williamsville really want to share the same school district with people that live in Buffalo's East Side or Garden City sharing the same district with those from Hempstead?
They wouldn't, but when the south desegregated its schools it was often done by establishing county-wide school districts. I think doing that here would help desegregate our schools too, since the gap between the inner-city and suburban schools here really is disturbing.
They wouldn't, but when the south desegregated its schools it was often done by establishing county-wide school districts. I think doing that here would help desegregate our schools too, since the gap between the inner-city and suburban schools here really is disturbing.
That's a very good point. NY is known for supposedly having one of the most segregated school systems in the US. A lot of that has to do with the makeup of the NYC Public schools, which make up a big chunk of the state's student population.
Even if counties don't go to a countywide school district, I think the least some districts should do is combine if their are more than 1 district for a town(i.e.-Colonie) or if the district doesn't have a HS(i.e.- Menands, in which students after 8th grade can go to either Shaker High or Watervliet High). I feel that Menands, for example, should either consolidate with either North Colonie(or the 1 Colonie SD) or Watervliet City.
Consolidation of some of the smaller districts into larger ones; yes. Countywide school districts; NO! Had to deal with that mess in NC and it was just that...a mess. In fact what I've gathered from catching up on the NC forum and reading the Raleigh News&Observer online; it appears that Wake County (where Raleigh and its suburbs are located, the 2nd largest school system in the state) has just elected several new memebers to its board of education who are pushing for more neighborhood schools. (This is controversial because though there would still be a county-wide school district; it would essentially re-segregate many of the schools to a degree)
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