New York - WHY do you accept your high taxes?! (Middletown: rent, insurance)

[Linda_d]

Originally Posted by Q44

Me again, I am a downstater that moved upstate. Born and raised in NYC, got married and moved out to Long Island, paid my taxes and commuted on the LIRR every day. A few years ago I was offered a job within my company in the Hudson Valley. That may not be the same as living in the Adirondanks but it is still upstate. It is very convenient, I can be back in NYC in about 2 1/2 hours or in Boston in 3. I've been all over the Upstate region over the years with my kids travel sports teams and to check out colleges (oldest is attending a SUNY) and if I worked as Gypsy said for Walmart, I'd be miserable. If Walmart is the standard bearer for jobs in America, we're all screwed. Many NYers have good jobs and good paying jobs at that. I have family in the states I mentioned earlier and I know what they make and it isn't what I make. I'm also very aware they don't pay anywhere near what I do in taxes and in other cost of living expenses, so to me it's all relative. They're happy making less and paying lower taxes, I'm happy making more even if it costs me more to do so. They enjoy different activites from what I do as well.

That was why I asked if it isn't all relative?

I do honestly believe though in the end the NYer wins out IF - big IF - you have a good job/pension/401K. Seems to me once you hit retirement and much of your income is based on what you earned in your lifetime, folks from higher income states have the option to either stay put or move to a lower cost/taxed area. Can't say the reverse is true.

I agree. When I retire in 2 1/2 years (not that I'm counting or anything ), my retirement income will be significantly more than what most working Americans make annually. That's what making a higher income for much of your working career will do for you.

Furthermore, since I don't have an anti-government bias, I'd sure rather pay taxes than HOA fees, which is how many supposedly "low tax" areas that have seen rapid development pay for new streets, sewers, water systems, etc. It's one thing to pay $120 a year in HOA fees for a community pool but don't come bragging to me about low your taxes are on your single family home when you're paying $120 a month or more in HOA fees on that house -- and you still have to mow your own grass and pay a water bill.

I also don't appreciate paying sales tax at 8 or 9% on everything I buy, including food and pharmaceuticals, or paying several hundred dollars a year personal property tax on my new or late model vehicles. I can always sell my house and move into an apartment, but I can't stop eating or taking prescribed medications, and I sure as heck am not interested in driving a ten year old beater rather than trading in my vehicle regularly.

[ThinkingElsewhere]

Originally Posted by Linda_d

I agree. When I retire in 2 1/2 years (not that I'm counting or anything ), my retirement income will be significantly more than what most working Americans make annually. That's what making a higher income for much of your working career will do for you.

Furthermore, since I don't have an anti-government bias, I'd sure rather pay taxes than HOA fees, which is how many supposedly "low tax" areas that have seen rapid development pay for new streets, sewers, water systems, etc. It's one thing to pay $120 a year in HOA fees for a community pool but don't come bragging to me about low your taxes are on your single family home when you're paying $120 a month or more in HOA fees on that house -- and you still have to mow your own grass and pay a water bill.

I also don't appreciate paying sales tax at 8 or 9% on everything I buy, including food and pharmaceuticals, or paying several hundred dollars a year personal property tax on my new or late model vehicles. I can always sell my house and move into an apartment, but I can't stop eating or taking prescribed medications, and I sure as heck am not interested in driving a ten year old beater rather than trading in my vehicle regularly.

Ditto, if I could rep you again I would. People are exaggerating and fail to acknowledge that these "low tax" states have many hidden fees like very high automobile tax and HOA fees which makeup for the high income and property taxes in NYS.

High sales tax in sunbelt states is the worst IMO. Like you said, you have the choice to move to an apartment if you really can't stand NY property taxes or at the least chose a town with lower than the average NY property tax, but you can't stop buying food and personal items. Also the areas ex-pats move to in the sunbelt are car dependent, so you can't get away with not having a car and certainly would not want to have some 10 year old beater when you need to drive everywhere.

[NYisontop]

Why do we put up with the high tax burden?

Because it's relatively not so high in comparison. We'd pay less overall in most other states. But we'd get less too, and in any case you pay everywhere, you're just hit differently, and you get more for your taxes in some place than others.

Other states are a little more eager to rely on fees and licenses to keep the tax rates down. About 15 states tax your groceries. New York doesn't. New York has the highest cigarette taxes, but few states have lower taxes on alcohol. Florida is heavily reliant on their general sales taxes and property taxes for funding, and on collecting fees from real estate developers to make up for the absence of an income tax.

The overall state and local tax burden in New York is among the highest - $12 200 per capita. The national average is $4 000 less. But per capita income is much higher than the rest of the nation. Only NJ, CT and MD rank higher. Per capita, New Yorkers make $51 126 per year. That's $12 000 more than in Florida, $15 000 more than in Georgia, and almost $20 000 more than in Mississippi.

So yes, taxes are higher. But overall, wages are higher. There are decades and decades of legacy costs built into our state and local governments, civil servants and corporate management retire with good benefits. Many leave for the Sunbelt, a definite transfer of wealth we'd rather not see as most of those benefits money does not re-enter the local economies. There are bridges we still pay for (The Verrazano-Narrows Bridge cost $320 million when it was completed in November 1964.. tolls to cross are expensive - $15 per passenger vehicle. Yet this only brings in about $1.4 million per year. If taxes didn't supplement the cost, it would take bridge users 60 years to pay off if they paid $30 toll each way. And at that cost, who would use the bridge?). We have a very expensive subway system that fares alone could never pay for, but greatly enhance the quality of life in NYC. There's an extremely convenient Metro-North and LIRR system that connects about 3/5 of the state's population to New York City, again, fares are subsidized, but the trains bring money into the Hudson Valley and Long Island communities as well. The State University of New York (SUNY) supports 1.56 million students with an affordable education. That does not include CUNY in New York City providing degrees and continuing education to another 550 000 adults and students. SUNY is the largest comprehensive university system in the US. As has already been mentioned, we have a large number of state parks and historical sites maintained, a fairly large Department of Transportation and hefty snow removal bill, and so on and on.

I could pay less elsewhere, but I would get less. Daytrips to Quebec and Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa and Hamilton I do kinda like. I ski so the Catskills and Adirondacks, Green and White Mountains, Berkshires and Poconos are all appealing. There's 400 years of historic small towns and places off the map in every direction that Arizona or Florida just can't provide. New York City is not without its perks. I make a point to see the various AHL and minor league baseball teams that are so abundant here. In Texas it's Dallas/Houston, big university football or the high school circuit. I take some pride in paying taxes, that a teacher here or a garbageman will have a livable wage, that the state provides individuals with developmental disabilities or mental health services two to six times more money than other states do.

At my payscale, I'd save about $900 a year in state/local taxes if I moved to Georgia. But you couldn't pay me to want to move to Georgia. Some of us pay the higher taxes because it's just worth it.

[VA Yankee]

Originally Posted by ThinkingElsewhere

You got to be kidding complaining about taxes on cigarettes. I think majority of people today are happy with the high prices of an oral device that contains 60+ carcinogens (aka cigarettes).

Gasoline is a finite resource, also when you use gasoline you contribute to outdoor air pollution which is linked to heart disease and asthma. No way should gas be cheap and not taxed. If you're going to use a nonrenewable resource, pollute, and jeopardize people's health, then you should pay the premium. Also, if you think NY has high gas prices being $0.25 higher, you should see how high it is in Hawaii or Europe for gas.

1) I don't smoke, how about we apply a $10+ tax on each bottle of wine or 6 pack of beer? I mean it's well documented that alchohol related diseases cost millions and how many DUI deaths a year?
2) Gasoline is an integral part of life for most people whether you agree or not. I hope you live off the grid in some rural location.
3) NY is not Hawaii and their justification is the shipping cost to get it over there. European living patterns are based on public transit not suburban commutes, just a different way to live.

[VA Yankee]

Originally Posted by just_sayin'

Please realize that people can have a quality of life even with NY's tax burden. I understand what you say and my taxes overall were lower when I lived down south in NC too. But that doesn't necessarily equate to a higher quality of life. You aren't crazy for living down south with lower COL (well compared to downstate ny, most of Virginia, even the Richmond and Hampton Roads areas, have a much higher COL than in Upstate NY) and it's great that you can afford more there. However, we aren't crazy for living in NY and paying the taxes here either and it's very possible to live a nice life here (at least in my part of the state) on a middle-class income.

I guess I just don't see a reason to obsess over taxes if my QOL is good and myself and my family are happy. I'm sure you don't mean it to be offensive but when you say things like "you're crazy for staying there and paying taxes"...it's pretty presumptuous.

Never said you couldn't have a QOL but in too many posts I read the laments over lack of extra money, costs associated just to live, taxes.... I never said your "crazy to stay" but to accept what many communities are charging their residents for services that I can only describe as garbage is crazy.
I base this on what my mother was billed at a senior and what I saw.

What I find presumptuous from many posters is the assumption that their is no QOL outside NY, many imply that civilization end somewhere in NJ.....

[ThinkingElsewhere]

Originally Posted by VA Yankee

1) I don't smoke, how about we apply a $10+ tax on each bottle of wine or 6 pack of beer? I mean it's well documented that alchohol related diseases cost millions and how many DUI deaths a year?
2) Gasoline is an integral part of life for most people whether you agree or not. I hope you live off the grid in some rural location.
3) NY is not Hawaii and their justification is the shipping cost to get it over there. European living patterns are based on public transit not suburban commutes, just a different way to live.

Smoking rate is higher than the alcoholism rate in the US. Therefore, smokers having more of an effect on raising health insurance premiums and medicare taxes than alcoholics. I'm happy to see a tax on cigarettes which can be used to pay and fund the public health workers at the New York Smokers Quitline. BTW if I was a smoker, cigarette taxes would be the least of my concern now that some employers are now refusing to hire smokers.

Believe me I lived in car dependent areas, thats why I drive a Prius and don't have to be at the pump every few days. Like what Linda_d says, I can choose to drive a fuel efficient car or live in Manhattan if I really can't stand NY gas taxes. In "low tax" states, I avoid the high sales tax because I'll always need food and personal items.

Regardless, people are not moving out of NY because of cigarette and gas taxes. I have yet to hear that one.

Originally Posted by VA Yankee

What I find presumptuous from many posters is the assumption that their is no QOL outside NY, many imply that civilization end somewhere in NJ.....

You're talking about like 3 LI forum posters. That assumption there's "no QOL outside NY by native NYers" is an outdated stereotype. The extremely few people I've met with that attitude are old money dinosaurs from the Upper East Side. Upstate NY, and even NY in general, gets a lot of bash and trolls on CD. Does NY have problems? Absolutely. Have I mentioned these problems? Of course. But I also believe that NY gets way more negativity than it deserves. In reality, every state has its problems.

[VA Yankee]

Originally Posted by ThinkingElsewhere

Smoking rate is higher than the alcoholism rate in the US. Therefore, smokers having more of an effect on raising health insurance premiums and medicare taxes than alcoholics. I'm happy to see a tax on cigarettes which can be used to pay and fund the public health workers at the New York Smokers Quitline. BTW if I was a smoker, cigarette taxes would be the least of my concern now that some employers are now refusing to hire smokers.

Believe me I lived in car dependent areas, thats why I drive a Prius and don't have to be at the pump every few days. Like what Linda_d says, I can choose to drive a fuel efficient car or live in Manhattan if I really can't stand NY gas taxes. In "low tax" states, I avoid the high sales tax because I'll always need food and personal items.

Regardless, people are not moving out of NY because of cigarette and gas taxes. I have yet to hear that one.



You're talking about like 3 LI forum posters. That assumption there's "no QOL outside NY by native NYers" is an outdated stereotype. The extremely few people I've met with that attitude are old money dinosaurs living in the Upper East Side. Upstate NY, and even NY in general, gets a lot of bash and trolls on CD. Does NY have problems? Absolutely. Have I mentioned these problems? Of course. But I also believe that NY gets way more negativity than it deserves. In reality, every state has it's problems.

Well at least you drive a car from your post I thought that any form of internal combustion engine was a no no. Cigarette and Gas taxes were just examples of every day things that run higher. Lets be real $10+ in tax for a pack of cigarettes is ridiculus and I have never seen tobacco taxes or settlement monies ever go towards "health care". Lets stop being a hypocrit and just outlaw the sale completely, after all there are county's down south that still outlaw liquer sales.

The total tax burden place on the average NYer is extremly high and when you add in 15 dollar bridge tolls, gas that jumps almost $.50 a gallon just by entering the state from NJ, higher price for almost every good and service and the higher wages every one (downstate) like to boast about don't buy as much.

Too often there seems to be an outlook that any QOL can exist outside of the NY Metro, archaic yes but it's still out there and for anyone who has lived elswhere they know it's false. I especially like the posters who speak of parks, paved roads, schools and bagels as unique benefits of the NY experience..... When did people start assuming that all communities (especially in the south) have mandatory HOA's? Yes they exist and the features they provide vary but they are not mandatory. If you don't want one just choose a different neighborhood and some of the prices quoted in earlier posts???

[ThinkingElsewhere]

Originally Posted by VA Yankee

Well at least you drive a car from your post I thought that any form of internal combustion engine was a no no. Cigarette and Gas taxes were just examples of every day things that run higher. Lets be real $10+ in tax for a pack of cigarettes is ridiculus and I have never seen tobacco taxes or settlement monies ever go towards "health care". Lets stop being a hypocrit and just outlaw the sale completely, after all there are county's down south that still outlaw liquer sales.

The total tax burden place on the average NYer is extremly high and when you add in 15 dollar bridge tolls, gas that jumps almost $.50 a gallon just by entering the state from NJ, higher price for almost every good and service and the higher wages every one (downstate) like to boast about don't buy as much.

Too often there seems to be an outlook that any QOL can exist outside of the NY Metro, archaic yes but it's still out there and for anyone who has lived elswhere they know it's false. I especially like the posters who speak of parks, paved roads, schools and bagels as unique benefits of the NY experience..... When did people start assuming that all communities (especially in the south) have mandatory HOA's? Yes they exist and the features they provide vary but they are not mandatory. If you don't want one just choose a different neighborhood and some of the prices quoted in earlier posts???

NY has high taxes on cigarettes, other states have high taxes on alcohol so it evens out. What gives? Quit smoking and you won't have to pay NY cigarette taxes. In all honestly I never heard anyone here complain about the taxes on cigarettes in NY, even smokers. NY has high property taxes but hey FL and AZ have high sales taxes, so pot meets kettle.

Bridges are expensive to maintain. The toll would probably be $40 instead of $15. People would never use them if they weren't subsidized by taxes. Last time I checked NJ isn't "low tax haven" either so the $0.50 gas difference is menial for most. And unlike the south, cold weather in NY and the northeast puts a lot of wear and tear on roads by contracting the pavement- that need to be repaired almost every year. Having the lake effect and at least one snowstorm in downstate per year, NY has to invest in a efficient snow removal system unlike the sunbelt. Everyone uses the roads even if you don't drive because trucks deliver goods to the stores.

Yeah that stereotype is archaic which is why I don't see the purpose of bringing it up. It's an outdated stereotype. Plus if you don't live in NY anymore why would care what some old time closed-minded elite Manhattanites think? Just because people continue to live in NY, are happy to live here, and may have never lived elsewhere, like the bagels and pizza doesn't mean they think there is no civilization west of the Hudson.

You're upset that NY has some high taxes, but why would you care if you don't pay them anymore? I have friends loving every minute of living in Manhattan, two doctor friends that love working in rural clinics located in the Adirondacks and outside Buffalo, another friend who has wonderful opportunities and career as a PhD research scientist at Cornell. Believe it or not people are still very happy living in NY even with the high taxes.

If you really want to know the reason behind high taxes in NY, look at NYisontop's post (#63) which gives a rational and truthful statement on taxes.

[VA Yankee]

Originally Posted by ThinkingElsewhere

NY has high taxes on cigarettes, other states have high taxes on alcohol so it evens out. What gives? Quit smoking and you won't have to pay NY cigarette taxes. In all honestly I never heard anyone here complain about the taxes on cigarettes in NY, even smokers. NY has high property taxes but hey FL and AZ have high sales taxes, so pot meets kettle.

Bridges are expensive to maintain. The toll would probably be $40 instead of $15. People would never use them if they weren't subsidized by taxes. Last time I checked NJ isn't "low tax haven" either so the $0.50 gas difference is menial for most. And unlike the south, cold weather in NY and the northeast puts a lot of wear and tear on roads by contracting the pavement- that need to be repaired almost every year. Having the lake effect and at least one snowstorm in downstate per year, NY has to invest in a efficient snow removal system unlike the sunbelt. Everyone uses the roads even if you don't drive because trucks deliver goods to the stores.

Yeah that stereotype is archaic which is why I don't see the purpose of bringing it up. It's an outdated stereotype. Plus if you don't live in NY anymore why would care what some old time closed-minded elite Manhattanites think? Just because people continue to live in NY, are happy to live here, and may have never lived elsewhere, like the bagels and pizza doesn't mean they think there is no civilization west of the Hudson.

You're upset that NY has some high taxes, but why would you care if you don't pay them anymore? I have friends loving every minute of living in Manhattan, two doctor friends that love working in rural clinics located in the Adirondacks and outside Buffalo, another friend who has wonderful opportunities and career as a PhD research scientist at Cornell. Believe it or not people are still very happy living in NY even with the high taxes.

If you really want to know the reason behind high taxes in NY, look at NYisontop's post (#63) which gives a rational and truthful statement on taxes.

You present a lot of the typical rational why things function as they do. Other states have roads and bridges that are free but travelors are still paying for the Thruway after 50+ years. The gas difference must be an issue for many because when you come up the PIP or GSP the pumps at the Jersey rest stops are packed and the NY ones are pretty empty. The archaic stereotype; you don't use it but plenty of posters do and it is alive and well to them.

You ask why I care, why does my views upset you especially the cigs/gas example? It was just one example. Perhaps I would like to retire part of the year upstate, perhaps I enjoy the usual engaging discussions that these boards host. There are regulars I banter with over issues and others I just enjoy reading their posts.

[RomaniGypsy]

Originally Posted by ThinkingElsewhere

Gasoline is a finite resource, also when you use gasoline you contribute to outdoor air pollution which is linked to heart disease and asthma. No way should gas be cheap and not taxed. If you're going to use a nonrenewable resource, pollute, and jeopardize people's health, then you should pay the premium. Also, if you think NY has high gas prices being $0.25 higher, you should see how high it is in Hawaii or Europe for gas.

I would agree with this if it weren't for the fact that the government got us addicted to petroleum fuels. After all, they do call it the "Eisenhower Interstate System". States put in their own superhighways which strongly encouraged travel by automobile, the Feds encouraged homebuying (which often results in a commute)... and then gas quadrupled in price and guess who did nothing about it?

I've never been to Europe but I have heard that they have a much more robust public transit system, and their roads / cities / towns are much more bicycle-friendly than those in the USA. Heck, I've even heard that tricycles are often built with heavy-duty suspensions in other countries because they're used as delivery vehicles!

So, we don't want that gas tax as long as we're essentially forced to be dependent upon vehicular transportation via gasoline and diesel powered vehicles. Why do we not have good alternative-fueled vehicles despite how they have existed in one form or another for over 100 years? Because the government is addicted to the tax money it gets from the oil companies and the oil companies are addicted to their billions of dollars per year in profits. They're sleeping with each other and neither is going to cut the other off in any dramatic fashion even though it could happen. The only solution is for ordinary Americans to demand alternatives en masse.

Originally Posted by ThinkingElsewhere

Believe me I lived in car dependent areas, thats why I drive a Prius and don't have to be at the pump every few days.

I applaud people who drive Priuses (Prii?) for that reason. However, you couldn't convince me to buy one. Okay, I'll save on gas. But when that hybrid battery takes a dump, as it will inevitably, that's several thousand dollars to replace. Bye-bye gas savings. Could I buy a newer Prius and sell / trade it before the life of its battery runs out? Sure, but then I'd lose many thousands of dollars to depreciation. There's still nothing more cost-efficient than buying a 20-year-old low-mileage four-cylinder econocar and taking care of it. You lose nothing to depreciation, repair costs are likely to be minimal if you knew what to look for in a car, and even if you have to junk it, they'll give you up to $300 for it at the junkyard. If you buy it for $1,000 and then run it into the ground for a net loss of $700, that's less than two Prius payments.