Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
NYC and upstate NY (north of the PA border and west of the Hudson) ARE different. The downstate area drives an ultra liberal legislative agenda that has made the upstate region unfriendly to business, especially manufacturing. Take the Cayuga Power Plant (formerly Milliken) in the Town of Lansing. The coal fired plant is now shuttered do to the RGGI (Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative). And NUCOR Corporation is threatening to pull out of Auburn because of electrical reliability problems due to the shutdown of the Cayuga plant (See New York State steers Cayuga power plant toward natural gas-fired future - Ithaca Times : News).
The simple solution: Separate NYS into "Upper New York" and "Lower New York." "Upper New York" could then develop itself unburdened by the downstate ethos and vice versa.
To be honest, I think consolidation of governmental entities needs to occur in Upstate NY. There are way too many school districts and other districts. Do we really need a town and city of Ithaca, Batavia, Geneva, Elmira, Binghamton, Plattsburgh, Watertown, Oneonta, Oswego or even a town or village of Dryden, Hamilton, Horseheads, Malone, Lyons, Homer, etc.?
To be honest, I think consolidation of governmental entities needs to occur in Upstate NY. There are way too many school districts and other districts. Do we really need a town and city of Ithaca, Batavia, Geneva, Elmira, Binghamton, Plattsburgh, Watertown, Oneonta, Oswego or even a town or village of Dryden, Hamilton, Horseheads, Malone, Lyons, Homer, etc.?
Agreed. Too many school districts and fire districts, and too many layers of government -- county, town, city, village. The policy of the state paying for road plowing/salt in towns and villages but not cities is also very outdated. I say abolish town government altogether. If you do not live in a city or village, services should be handled at the county level.
Agreed. Too many school districts and fire districts, and too many layers of government -- county, town, city, village. The policy of the state paying for road plowing/salt in towns and villages but not cities is also very outdated. I say abolish town government altogether. If you do not live in a city or village, services should be handled at the county level.
I also say since school taxes make the biggest amount of property taxes, go to county school districts that are governed in a way a county legislator is governed(county executive with legislative districts). You could keep the current district boundaries for this and for highly populated counties, you can zone the district accordingly with open enrollment within the district or for magnet schools(within reason to where a certain amount are city residents).
For current districts that cross county lines, that area gets grandfathered or based into the county the district was centralized in. For example, Saranac Lake SD is centralized in Franklin County, but crosses into 3 counties. So, that while area can be included into Franklin County Schools. You could also grandfather current students and change it for those students that are of school age after the change, perhaps.
Go drive around Miami-dade, palm beach and broward counties when the restaurants are serving up their early bird specials. The aging population dwarfs that of anywhere I've ever been to including the rest of Florida.
As for the universities, they are still far behind that of the northeast. Try finding someone down there with a specific skill set. It is easier to convince a northerner to move down there to take that job, but then you risk turnover once that employee finds that desired position elsewhere.
Only old people go to early bird specials anywhere! They are retired (so no job) and with income so they can go to restaurants when they first open up. Younger people are working.
The typical Northeastern University is not more advanced than the typical university in Florida. Take NY. You've two ivy leagues. Neither SUNY or CUNY is anything to write home about, and I don't think any CUNY or SUNY makes the top 100 nationally.
And yes, they have specific skill sets at universities in Florida, including post graduate programs in the sciences, medicine, law, humanities, business schools, etc. Stop hating.
Upstate NY itself has an aging problem, as most young people leave after high school or college. Its why NYS population continues to shrink outside NYC.
NYC and upstate NY (north of the PA border and west of the Hudson) ARE different. The downstate area drives an ultra liberal legislative agenda that has made the upstate region unfriendly to business, especially manufacturing. Take the Cayuga Power Plant (formerly Milliken) in the Town of Lansing. The coal fired plant is now shuttered due to the RGGI (Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative). And NUCOR Corporation is threatening to pull out of Auburn because of electrical reliability problems due to the shutdown of the Cayuga plant (See New York State steers Cayuga power plant toward natural gas-fired future - Ithaca Times : News).
The simple solution: Separate NYS into "Upper New York" and "Lower New York." "Upper New York" could then develop itself unburdened by the downstate ethos and vice versa.
Other Great Lakes states don't have NYC, yet they are doing just as poorly as upstate NY.
Upstate NY was very unionized, and manufacturers fled the Northeast and the Midwest for right to work Southern states. After NAFTA and the WTO, many manufacturers fled the country.
NYC itself was damaged by this, but it was able to recover as well as it did because NYC is the nation's business capital and they were able to get by on business and services. Upstate NY did not diversify much beyond the industrial era, and they paid the price. Kodak was a big company in Rochestor. Unfortunately Kodak didn't get into digital photography until it was too late, and Kodak also could have gotten into smartphones (which all have digital cameras) but they didn't and now look what happened. You've little to no innovation upstate.
Changes in the national and global economy make it impossible to ever see upstate industrial hey day return.
Status:
"Let this year be over..."
(set 22 days ago)
Location: Where my bills arrive
19,219 posts, read 17,091,524 times
Reputation: 15538
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
People have to have a place to retire to.
Also, the Albany, Rochester, Syracuse, Glens Falls, Ithaca and Watertown areas added people between 2000-2010. Some cities actually added people within cities during that time as well. Orange and Saratoga counties are the two fastest growing counties in the state. So, it depends on where in Upstate you look at and the pace/amount of growth in comparison to other areas in other states.
What kinds of growth numbers are you referring to? In looking at New York QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau and reading "city" population all are flat to falling except Ithaca which gained 200 people (quick build more housing). Growth overall is flat to falling and I will not look at CDP which are too broad a swath to consider as valid data.
So NY is potentially number 4 in population big deal is it the drop in population or being below Florida that galls people?
What kinds of growth numbers are you referring to? In looking at New York QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau and reading "city" population all are flat to falling except Ithaca which gained 200 people (quick build more housing). Growth overall is flat to falling and I will not look at CDP which are too broad a swath to consider as valid data.
So NY is potentially number 4 in population big deal is it the drop in population or being below Florida that galls people?
Cities in Upstate NY that actually added people within city limits between 2000-2010 were Albany, Troy, Schenectady, Utica, Watertown, Saratoga Springs, Ithaca and Plattsburgh, among some others. Binghamton was flat and Syracuse lost about 1%. Rochester has seen small gains since 2010. If you count the Hudson Valley as Upstate, then you can add Beacon, Newburgh, Poughkeepsie and Middletown as well. You can look here: US2010
I don't think it is as big of a deal, as in comparison, other metrics seem to favor NY and it just isn't that serious.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 12-28-2013 at 07:11 PM..
Status:
"Let this year be over..."
(set 22 days ago)
Location: Where my bills arrive
19,219 posts, read 17,091,524 times
Reputation: 15538
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
Cities in Upstate NY that actually added people within city limits between 2000-2010 were Albany, Troy, Schenectady, Utica, Watertown, Saratoga Springs, Ithaca and Plattsburgh, among some others. Binghamton was flat and Syracuse lost about 1%. Rochester has seen small gains since 2010. If you count the Hudson Valley as Upstate, then you can add Beacon, Newburgh, Poughkeepsie and Middletown as well.
I don't think it is as big of a deal, as in comparison, other metrics seem to favor NY and it just isn't that serious.
But what numbers? What has Albany (City) added in the 10 year window you quote?
This just highlights how the US should treat major cities like NYC on the same administrative level as states, like they do in China. In terms of population alone, NYC would rank the 12th most populous and yet we are beholden to the interests of Albany. Without the rest of the state, the GDP of NYC would still rank #4 in the country.
Most people upstate feel Albany is beholden to NYC. I've always thought it is beholden to the public sector unions
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Dale
Go drive around Miami-dade, palm beach and broward counties when the restaurants are serving up their early bird specials. The aging population dwarfs that of anywhere I've ever been to including the rest of Florida.
As for the universities, they are still far behind that of the northeast. Try finding someone down there with a specific skill set. It is easier to convince a northerner to move down there to take that job, but then you risk turnover once that employee finds that desired position elsewhere.
I'd put uf, usf or Miami toe to toe with any suny, cuny or nyu
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
